For Sale Sticky for Newbies

Gman · Since 11 Feb 2006 4911 Posts Portland Unstrapped

Dude, my 2001 10m fuel is crispier than any 2006 waroo and my Ryan Rawson directional is totally back in style. We got Kraemer body draggin on it and he lived to tell

$350 and I will throw in a harness I made from webbing and a nsi reel leash.

PS: those old aeros are fun for skate kiting.

Wind Slither · Since 04 Mar 2005 2624 Posts The 503 METAL

Wind Slither · Since 04 Mar 2005 2624 Posts The 503 METAL

[quote="manplesvanuatu"]My point was that I don't understand why some people want to unload some really old technology (sometime unsafe) for a mere few bucks...at the expense of a newbie. [\quote]

Pre 06 = "really old" ?

[quote="manplesvanuatu"]You can go but the new KITEBOARDER magazine (i am not trying to sell!) and they have an article on how to buy stuff..The author speaks of the same. gear has changed drastically the past 2 years since 2006. when all manufactures finally dialed the idea to nake good kites...prior to that it was hit and miss. [\quote]

Gee, why would a kite mag want to promote new kite sales. Wait, don't they say that every year?

[quote="manplesvanuatu"]...and it has a chance to relaunch even though you have the thing directly downwind...would you have to swim sideways to the C-kite to relaunch it? [\quote]

OK, so you had one specific example. (As much convenience as safety.) Wink

[quote="manplesvanuatu"]...let the newbies use something that is foolproof and easier to learn on.[\quote]

Foolproof? That statement is more dangerous than my old AR3.5 2-liner. (which is for sale by the way)
Razz

manplesvanuatu · Since 17 Jul 2008 15 Posts

Well..this is what i was afraid of...I realized I made a mistake opening " a can of worms" and would have to keep on feeding it..I would like to stop...but looks like it did not after the last post:-) Let me say this..this is the last post! Smile

I don't argue with the gentleman who said his 2001 Fuel is "crispier" than the 2006 waroo. I got to tip my hat to him..he learned the sport early on...and is probably a hell of a rider...Of course with that said..you can give him a bed sheet and he will do kite loop with it. So being advance he can fly anything...we are talking about a beginner learning the sport here!

But can he said honestly how long did it take him to learn the sport around that time? Did he master that fuel in a week (way back then?) The consensus I get around my launch area from the early 2000's era veterans is that they took a LONG time to figure out things back then. some even said 6months! They had no instructors or people to ask and with those 2 lines kites some of them got really hurt.

You hear these days with the new equipment it is not unusual to hear people learning in 2 or 3 sessions...that compare to 6 months..i'll take anyday!

As far as wind slither saying that I did not give details on how one kite is safer than the other one..a few reasons..mainly cause I already wrote too much..secondly I am no expert at the thing so I can't really go into details..

But looking at the logic of things speaking of JUST depower..if you look at the design of the 2 kites (bow or C's) look at the distance of the 2 sets of lines...(front and rear)...would you not concur that it is much longer in the Bow kites? What does the logic say? you can roatate or swivel the "opening of "the wind attacking surface area" ( that is facing the wind) with a longer :throw"...look at the C-kite how that distance is so short...it's all common sense.

anyway I have no comments..too tired to answer..like I said I have grudge agains C kites..heck Aaron Hadlow and Ruben Lenten use C' kites...because they are vets and know how to fly them (give them bed sheets and they'll do the same:-) so my point is that just don't say things like:" It's the perfect beginner kite"...even worse when you bring out a 1999,2000 and 2001 kite and use the same line.

so wind slither..hopefully someone very knowlegdeable decide to answer in detail your question. If not take a lesson with an approved instructor..and ask him all the stuff we have ben talking above

..peace to you all.

manplesvanuatu · Since 17 Jul 2008 15 Posts

i meant I have no grudge against C'kites:-)

Wind Slither · Since 04 Mar 2005 2624 Posts The 503 METAL

No can of worms here...just a desire to discuss facts rather than opinions that may or may not have real basis.

Anyone else?

And just so you know, I would recommend the newer designs to anyone who can afford them. Partly because of safety (best reason to give the wife for why you need to buy new kites..."yeah honey, it just wouldn't be safe not to get these kites.") but mostly because they fly so nice and are easier to setup and operate.

rich · Since 30 Nov 2005 306 Posts portland Obsessed

I think that the biggest thing new folks to the sport can do is network w/ someone that rides. Someone on this forum was going to buy a waroo from me, as we chatted she disclosed that she hadn't had any lessons and was just looking for a cheap rig. I told her to buy a wetsuit and a harness and nothing else. Then to come to the launch and talk to people. Most of the dumb shit I see are from people w/ no experienced buds that try to figure it out on their own....DUMB!...

I suppose this assumes that kiters at the launch aren't going to pull the 'too cool for school because i kite' bs and help the newbs out.

Don't forget where you came from

forrest · Thu Jul 17, 08 3:41 pm

No, this isn't about what kite is better to learn on. If you want to save a buck, I think you should know that there is a good chance you might end up paying with blood, guts, and your limbs. That's all.

Calling some old C kites a great beginner package is a load of shit. Maybe that worked for some of you at the coast, but not here in the gusty Gorge. Keep your old C kites to yourself.

Diggy · Since 25 Nov 2006 342 Posts Gorge to Coast Obsessed

Not addressing the safety issue at all.

When I switched to 07 Bow kites (SS Link then T2's) my riding improved instantly. Can't say why, I think it was the extra de-power and just the way the kite handled. Those old 04-05 fuels kicked my ass when I tried learning on them.

I think buying a wetsuit, harness, and trainer kite is a good start. I know I wanted big kites from day one, and some of my initial purchases were wastes of money.

I always appreciate facts rather than opinions.

~dig

forrest · Thu Jul 17, 08 3:48 pm

2006 and up C kites are also great kites to learn on.

This thread was just about making some recommendations to beginners to avoid gear from 1999-2005 that was marked as a "Great Beginner Package".

kyle.vh · Since 11 Jul 2007 713 Posts city of angels Addicted

I think a sticky is a good idea, as long as it's framed as a friendly recommendation (I'm sure it would be).
It's not fair to assume we know what the best beginner package is for a certain person.
Sure, for most it will be newer bow kites, and this would be great advice for a sticky. But for others it may be something different.
I intentionally bought pre-05 kites because they were cheap. I learned to be a very competent kiter on them. I think there are other folks that can/should do this as well.
Why spend 3k to see if you like kiting if you can spend under $500?

Forrest, I dunno man, are you saying someone wouldn't be happy learning on an 05 C kite at SI? I'd have to disagree with you there.

stringer · Since 31 Jul 2007 694 Posts Chucktown Flying Tomato

If there was to be such a sticky, maybe post some kind of link like the "spots" section.
Make it a "beginners" button.
Have advice on what to buy, where to learn, and contact info for local schools.
Maybe even get somebody's 3 year old to draw us a nice map or two.

This way we can answer newbie questions by telling them to click the link, leaving us more space on the main board to talk about unicorns and related things.

p.s. I wonder how much longer before this thread gets locked...
bets anyone?

forrest · Thu Jul 17, 08 4:29 pm

Do you have a better way to keep people from selling gear to beginners in a predatory manner? Sure, maybe 2005 was a decent year for gear, is 2004? 2003? 2002? "Great Beginner Package, Starter Package, etc..."

I was trying to keep this on the down-low, but to hell with it. Some jackass bounced his head off a tree stump at Lyle on Sunday, flying those exact same Aero II kites that he bought used. Few people told him to take a lesson, but he just told everyone to get lost. By doing this, he jeopardizes EVERYONE's ability to access. I didn't see it happen, so I don't have exact details, but supposedly the dude went unconscious and was having seizures.

So, it possible this could have happen on new kites. This is true. But statistically, just looking at kiteforum.com for data, the death rate of kiteboarders has dropped significantly due to safer gear. That is a fact.

So, one way I see of controlling the problem is by making sure people don't purchase old shit gear that has a high probability of killing or injuring them and jeopardizing access to a spot that is already near extinction.

Wind Slither · Since 04 Mar 2005 2624 Posts The 503 METAL

Forrest:

Nobody has been able to list any significant safety advantages of post 06 kites because there really aren't any. That is my point.

I know you want to help people avoid getting hurt and I'm with ya 100%. But spreading inaccurate perception doesn't help anybody. Look at manavanuatu - he thinks he's foolproof on his SLE.

This thread started out with a statement about kites...

forrest · Thu Jul 17, 08 5:02 pm

Depower is not a safety feature?

gabe · Since 16 May 2005 491 Posts Obsessed

this issue does not need to be made into some controversy.

if you were recommending kites to your friend or family member to learn on, what would you get them? probably not the kites that forrest is warning against. simple.

besides, you can get 2 year old flat kites for so cheap now it's crazy.

also, although most of us probably learned on c kites, with so many people flying flat kites now, people don't treat it as such a dangerous sport, and are a lot more casual about launching, landing, walking around with kites overhead, etc. if someone saw all that behavior and then acted the same way on a c kite, there could be some issues.

4_me_2_poop_on · Since 17 Jul 2008 7 Posts New Member

my life story:

in 2006 bought used gear from someone advertising "great beginner package". for $575 i got a 2004 12m naish v4 w/bar and lines, an old dakine windsurfing seat harness, and a massive gaastra board.

the only person I knew who kited was someone who rode 2 line kites, and advised me that 4 line kites were just more to get tangled up. he obviously didn't know wtf he was talking about, and fortunately i didn't listen to him. unfortunatley i bought what I did. the board was actually fine. the harness was a joke, so i quickly bought a new one, and the kite. the kite.

windslither do you want a safety feature besides depower? how about stability? that piece of crap would hindenburg if i took my eye off it for a second. it had a wind range of about 4 miles an hour between being underpowered andfalling out of the sky, and lit dragging me across the sand. i can count on one hand the sessions where I was properly powered and able to go back and forth on the board.

in feb '07 i had saved up and got a 15m waroo. night and day difference. easily twice the windrange, i could get my board on my feet without being pulled through the water, and i could do that while the stable kite hung out at 12 without me having to fly the hell out of it.

it's the combination of stability and depower(and therefore extended wind range) that make the newer kites so much safer. if your old kite stalls then hotlaunches you might only have 30-50% depower, but if your newer kite stalls(which it usually won't) then you've got at least 80-90% depower available, which equals being drug 15 feet towards a solid object as opposed to 30ft.

looking back and analyzing some of the things the seller told me, i'm 95% sure that he was selling it and quiting kiting just because of the awful experiences he'd had trying to learn. more than anything i resent that he would lie and say that this was a great setup when he knew otherwise.

do i regret getting into kiting when i did, even with such a small budget? no. I really wanted to kite, and would still ride that thing today if that was my only option. but there's no way i would be as good as i am now, or as confidant. (plus i'm in one piece)

kites that are stable and depower have changed the learning curve, and to represent a potentially more dangerous, difficult product to a noob just so you can dump your crap is just plain shady, like greasy used car salesman shady. that's like selling a three wheeler to someone, knowing it's a deathtrap and that there's an affordable 4 wheeler available down the street.