Bend Snowkite this weekend

kyle.vh · Since 11 Jul 2007 713 Posts city of angels Addicted

Scott Silver writes:
"I am confident that snow-kiting it is absolutely prohibited by the Wilderness Act and the laws, rules and regulations promulgated to carry out the original intent of that Act..."

That's pretty ridiculous. His case seems to be kiting doesn't fit within the definition of "wilderness character", or at least, his definition. Sounds like this guy would outlaw any 'new', 'radical' sport: like modern rock climbing or snowboarding.
It's strange that he doesn't build his case around kiting's similarities to paragliding.

For the aviators out there: is is fair to call kiting flying--to put it on par with paragliding? With a kite, you can boost a little, but then your just controlled-falling, which doesn't seem the same to me as paragliding--the intent of which is to fly, right?

barfly · Since 31 Mar 2005 1214 Posts Portland BRACKISH

I'm pretty sure snow kites on expeditions have been commonplace for sometime now (Greenland, Alaska come to mind). This definitely gets into the touring/expedition/climbing category as related to kites (e.g. http://www.thenorthface.com.au/expeditions.php?action=view_exp&year=2005&title=baffin_island). I would think "Earth first hippies" wouldn't want to close doors to a possible means to get to climbing routes. Tying powered snow kiting to a "means of travel" seems a plausible argument for inclusion in wilderness areas.

MW · Since 09 Jan 2006 186 Posts Hood River, Oregon Stoked

We have to get together now to reiterate that this is a wind powered sport using a mode of transportation that is much older than any of the telemark or backcountry gear that advocacy groups use to get themselves into the backcountry. Greenpeace and other environmental groups even promoted and applauded a snowkiter for a campaign tour through North Dakota promoting wind power and other environmental causes, so this needs to be made aware to any group trying to shut this sport down and keep us from enjoying a natural sport. Check out these links for details. I have a call into Chris Sabo of the USFS to start understanding what it is we need to do to help keep our sport alive.

http://www.firstpeople.us/FP-Html-Pictures/canoe-pictures-1.html

http://media.www.dakotastudent.com/media/storage/paper970/news/2007/01/12/News/Snowkiters.Progress.Across.Great.Plains-2632336.shtml

http://www.prweb.com/releases/Mortenson_Construction/2XtM/prweb691584.htm

"Team YogaSlackers are a small group of elite ultra-endurance adventurers, master yoga teachers, and stewards of the environment. Through adventure racing, yoga instruction, slacklining (tight-rope walking), remote climbing, packrafting and snowkiting expeditions, team members strive to live by the principles of environmental sustainability. Team YogaSlackers is committed to eco-conscious education, renewable energy promotion, and partnering only with companies who truly share the ideals of positive global change."

" The whole purpose of the 2XtM expedition was to inform the public of global climate change and North Dakota's potential to combat it through wind energy. Letters to the governor were encouraged, but not mandatory, and only if the students supported the cause. The athletic portion of the expedition was to catch people's interest through the media. Since snowkiting allows you to feel the power of the wind in your hands and thus literally feel North Dakota's potential for wind energy, the "hobby" and the "politics" are of necessity intertwined. "

These are just a couple and there are many more. I will post information after I talk with the USFS. Definitely lame that this had to happen. We just need to be sure to keep our eye on it. I also plan on talking with Scott Silver of "WW" and find out what his concern is and how we can get him to see it from our perspective

kyle.vh · Since 11 Jul 2007 713 Posts city of angels Addicted

matt,
when i read WW.org carefully, it seems to be established to eliminate the threat of commercialization of wilderness areas in Bend, especially where motorized vehicles are concerned. In this sense, there is potential for snowkiters to have a lot in common with ww.org....
Also it seems important to stress that the VAST majority of kiters are just harmlessly touring. Very few take 'flight'. This may be something that can be regulated so that specific violators are cited, but the community as a whole is not acting illegally.
I agree with the get-together sentiment. I'd be happy to assist with web-development if that would be helpful to put a public face out there.

Sol-flyer · Fri Jan 30, 09 12:54 pm

glad to see the positive responses, i hope i didnt buzzkill the moment.
My relationship with the forest service is that they are very open and receptive to
the new sport, another winter recreation with postive effects on the enviroment.

mit_noslrac · Since 17 May 2005 108 Posts Bend Oregon Stoked

As long as we are responsible and keep positive, it all should be good!

Stick to the basic rules,

Pack out what you pack in.
No snowmobiles over the line.
No more than 12 in a group into the wilderness boundary,
and for all of us except two or three people I can think of when you catch air, keep your knuckles on the ground!

YOU CAN NOW OFFICIALY BE CALLED A KNUCKLE DRAGGER!

Tim

blancoh2o · Since 15 Mar 2005 1154 Posts Oregon Phishy

I received an e-mail from Tim today that says. Snowkiting in the Dutchman Flats Wilederness Area is now Illegal.

He said they were up there recently having a good day with nice weather and wind when the Wilderness Ranger (Chris Sabo) rode up to them on his snowmobile and advised them that the decision has been made and snowkiting in the Wilderness area is absolutely illegal.

What amazes me is you can hike in with your ski/snowboard gear and ride down, but you can't kite up and down the same mountain. Another issue that is strange is that this ruling in not consistant from one forest to another. I would think that Federal Lands should have the same federal laws.

The Deschuttes National Forest Managers have got to report to someone above their level. I am thinking the Deprtment of the Interrior, but I am not positive about that. It would be nice to know why this forest is different from the others. Has anyone done research on this?

Gman · Since 11 Feb 2006 4911 Posts Portland Unstrapped

it does seem pretty random - but other areas have closed wilderness access to even climbers - seems we have a strong argument that snow kiting is zero impact

solkiter · Since 07 Jan 2008 251 Posts ROGUE VALLEY Obsessed

"I know its great to watch people like alex peterson jumping off peaks, But this kinda of action will certainly get snowkiting banned from wilderness area's. Its time for snowkiters to start getting organzed and act as "stewards" to ensure a positive relationship between the forest service officials and other political sanctions.??????????"

ugh????
_________________ Question

blowhard · Since 26 Dec 2005 2028 Posts Windward

mit_noslrac · Since 17 May 2005 108 Posts Bend Oregon Stoked

We already cut off our noses despite our faces and have shot each other 3 times in the foot. The reality is, yes this did speed along the Forest Service’s decision to illegalize snowkiting in the wilderness, but it was just a matter of time because it was already deep discussion with the higher ups in the Forest Service, they only needed one little push from the Wild Wilderness group and that was it. The only thing we can do now is come together as a group and voice our opinions.

blowhard · Since 26 Dec 2005 2028 Posts Windward

the more you squawk
the more they hear
the more they ban
the more they enforce
just keep it off the internets ("they are like tubes you know")
just drop it,
it's illegal (has been and will continue).

pm yer pals and be done with it
or wer'e gonna have dudes on sno machines patroling every spot and no way to plead ignorance
I'm sure all the folks against this activity are tuned into this forum now Sad

registered · Since 12 Jul 2005 1319 Posts tsunami Sandbagger

HMMMM IF ONLY WE LIVED IN A MORE FOREWARD THINKING STATE THAT COULD SEE THE TOURIST ATTRATION ASPECTS OF THIS NEW ECO FRIENDLY QUIET AND BEAUTIFUL SPORT.

INSTEAD THE VALUE IS PLACED ON THE FLORA AND FAUNAS PROTECTION.

WHICH I DO APPRECIATE WHEN I SEE.

PERSONALLY I BELIEVE THERE ARE MANY MORE DEER PER SQUARE MILE IN TOWN HERE IN EUGENE THAN OUT IN THE NATIONAL FOREST, DESPITE BEING RUN DOWN BY DOGS AND CARS AND FED WITH LANDSCAPING.

I N THE WILDERNESS THE BIRDS ALWAYS HANG BY THE CAMPSITES TO STEAL SOME EASY GRUB.

LIKE BLOWHARD SAID THE MOVEMENT IS NOW DEAD.

ENJOY NATURE AND LEAVE ALL BUT MEMORIES THERE. LIKE VEGAS. Twisted Evil

blowhard · Since 26 Dec 2005 2028 Posts Windward

Sol-flyer · Mon Feb 02, 09 3:04 pm

I have a lot of respect for Tim and the whole BKC crew. They've done a great job promoting the sport and sharing the stoke to everyone with open arms. They worked hard to do everything "by the book" and it is unfortunate that something negative has transpired for such dedication and a positive mindset.

Who the cap fit, Let them wear it
-Sol

kyle.vh · Since 11 Jul 2007 713 Posts city of angels Addicted

I agree that it sucks that Tim and Co. got so shutdown after working so closely with the Rangers. But we learned a valuable lesson: wilderness advocates hate snowmobiles anywhere near wilderness, and big groups, and tents, and big flights. We need to show that kiting is nothing like this--that it fits their concept of wilderness--if we want to get anywhere.
Here's my opinion: I think we should get a non-profit together to raise money to hire a lawyer and pursue the legality of kiting in the wilderness. I think our stance should be to promote safe (non-extreme) kiting without the use of snowmobiles as support. It would be feasible to get national and international support, since we have such a resource in the west.
I know that snowmobiles weren't used on wilderness land, but the issue seems so touchy to wilderness advocates. I think it would be best to cast snowkiting as similar to back-country skiing and sailing as possible.
And non-extreme meaning no cliff jumping. Yes, that's a bit more boring, but I think we need to focus on making it legal first.
Is there interest in forming such a group? It would be great to combine the motivation of the BKC and the SOKA, with snowkite enthusiasts from Portland and HR.
I am very interested in this, and I have a lot of free time until June, I just need to focus my energy.

kyle.vh · Since 11 Jul 2007 713 Posts city of angels Addicted

"there shall be no temporary road, no use of motor vehicles, motorized equipment or motorboats, no landing of aircraft, no other form of mechanical transport, and no structure or installation within any such area. "

This seems to be one of the few lines that addresses snowkiting. Besides the general concept of 'preserving wilderness' in it's 1964 state.
I think that it's really positive (i'm biased though).
Here's my interpretation:
No form of mechanical transport--This could mean kiting. It was used to successfully exclude mountain biking(!!!).
However, I think an important point is the use of the term "motorboats". It would have been logical to prohibit all boats--as in sailboats. But sailboats were not prohibited. Therefore it suggests that mechanized transport does not refer to wind powered travel. This, coupled with the history of naive peoples use of sail equipment seems like legitimate legal legs.
"Landing of aircraft" got paragliding, basejumping, and hang gliding all prohibited. This is why I think our stance should be 'responsible' kiting--that excludes cliff gliding.
Curious if there are other thoughts here.