awesome snow kiting video

treegeek · Since 04 Aug 2013 24 Posts

I've seen snow kiting, and I've seen speedflying on skis with small paragliding wings...but this takes snow kiting to a whole new level...

http://vimeo.com/92154883

Windstoked · Since 21 May 2013 43 Posts Norcal

Incredible, Treegeek!
The most daring part though was flying so close between the trees. One small branch catches a steering line and that kite would turn towards the tree and start looping so fast it would launch you right through the tree.

sromano1995 · Since 22 May 2013 240 Posts Portland Stoked

Yes, awesome footage and editing... and snowkiting of course! One of the best videos of the genre that I have seen

Weaz · Since 23 May 2012 360 Posts Beaverton Obsessed

I've kited with there guys two years ago at jones. It was on their trip along the Oregon coast and gorge. They also speed sail. They are cool guys.

SpaceRacer · Since 04 Nov 2007 434 Posts Obsessed

I have a different take on this. These are guys doing something dangerous with the wrong tools for the job. I guess you could call it kiting since they are on kites. But that is the point. They are paragliding without a paraglider and all of the controls and redundancies built in. It's kooky and dangerous and if someone in this crew doesn't die someone watching the video eventually will. I am surprised Ozone puts their name on this.

blowhard · Since 26 Dec 2005 2027 Posts Windward

waynepjh · Since 27 Jul 2008 212 Posts jackson wy Stoked

This has come up before. The conditions we choose to glide in are the same as we would paraglide over. My knowledge of flying is deep and I have much respect for it. I have been a para glider pilot for 20 years. Our kites are in mint condition and we back up our chicken loop and spreader bar. In the air kites are more stable than para gliders and speed wings. What you see in this video is some of the best kite gliders in the world and are definitely pushing the limits. My style of gliding has changed into skimming/ speed fly style where I stay close to the ground. Flying high used to be my thing but I always had that fear of gear failure. Not any more. In Alaska I was able to fly from a mountain 3,500 vertical feet all the way down to the road it was over a ten minute flight. I was never over ten feet off a powder covered slope. That is not extreme. Look at some of the stunts that people are pulling on the water. Kite gliding is here to stay and there will be an accident eventually but so far gliding seems safer than paragliding. Jmo

knewschool · Since 23 Dec 2010 61 Posts Wyoming

I see where you are coming from SpaceRacer. We are sponsored by Ozone and Ozone does not want their kites used for flying. However, they are also sympathetic to the future of the sport. After many long discussions the industry is beginning to come to an understanding of some sort to help make a safety standard so there's a difference between the stuntman, and the normal practice. People do crazy things snowkiting sometimes. But I argue, we do not.

Ultimately, what needs to be known is the high level of risk calculation going on in these videos. We maintain new well checked gear always. We build a trust with our equipment after taking "baby steps" as we get to know our kites. But this is important!: equipment failure doesn't mean certain death. The airs and gaps have great transitions and very deep snow. I built terrain parks for a few years, and I imagine people who don't understand transitions probably think clearing a 70' table top jump is insane. Similar risk factors are considered in our case.The gaps over rocks and cliffs obviously have increased risk, but the amount of time over those obstacles is short.

Near Jackson, Wyoming where we live the world record cliff jump occurred. 240' or so I think...google it... anyway this guy landed on his head and walked away unscathed. We called him "jumpin for Jesus." Snow depth and transition were the factors calculated into that ridiculous stunt.

When it comes down to it, I believe serious injury or death is more likely among kitesurfers with old equipment walking over obstacles to get to the water, megaloops in 3" of water, gaping over a small obstacle in the water, crowds... All of which happens daily on old sandy equipment.

At this point in our sport we've observed enough snowkiters learning to glide that we realized they take very small baby steps before they actually spend any time in the air. Inevitably only experienced kiters will learn to glide. This is why kite gliding has a good incident record compared to paragliding. Bottom line is that less experienced pilots lift off the ground with paragliders, especially since that's all you want to do with a paraglider. So thinking that everyone is going to go fly off cliffs because they watch this video is not very likely.

Anyway, all the feedback helps! Hope this clears some stuff up. It's the type of thing we talked about at the bighorn snowkite summit here https://vimeo.com/82417048

Cheers - Will

SpaceRacer · Since 04 Nov 2007 434 Posts Obsessed

Wayne and Will, thanks for taking the time to educate. I didn't know some of the things you discuss. I like the idea of a lengthy glide 10' off the deck in pristine snow...a lot. In fact I better come over from Idaho this next winter to try it first hand:-).

Paul

Freeride Kiter · Sun Jun 29, 14 10:52 am

Some companies like Ocean Rodeo love the pictures and edits we submit of gliding off mountains at Thompson Pass and all through out South Central AK. However they do not test, recommend or condone the use of their gear for that purpose and will rarely if ever promote or show images of that on any of their web presence.

Sella · Mon Jun 30, 14 10:11 am

Wayne and the Wyoming wild bunch......how are you rigging these back-ups?

SpaceRacer · Since 04 Nov 2007 434 Posts Obsessed

I think that is the point Sella. Think about a kite: stitched in a factory, has an inflatable leading edge that can EASILY deflate for whatever reason, inflate/deflate valves that are the same as the ones on $4 rafts, 100s of feet of lines which can and do snap wherever, chicken loops taht break, spreader bar hooks manufactured with hidden stress fractures. What is "mint condition" on these things? Now...put yourself 100' off the ground on this "crap" and there is my point in all of this. These kites are not designed farther than you are willing to fall.

SR

Sella · Mon Jun 30, 14 11:32 am

SR.......the failure numbers don't pencil while the odds of you getting hurt falling in your bathtub is highly more likely too happen. These guys are using the right gear for their stoke and have added another level of safety that I would like to know more about redundancy to offset Dakines shitty spreader bars. Yes, the key piece of METAL that is failing. Not the bladder, not the china fabric, not the $4 valve. Downhill mtn bikers, motocrossers, kayakers etc...all our gorge loves......seem far more dangerous to me than kiting and sooner or later shit will break so ride at your own risk. That's part of the fun though, to separate the men from the boys right?

I am actually amazed at how all kite gear holds together considering the amount of force it constantly endures every session when we are getting "shot out of the cannon". I've blasted out 1 kite panel years ago but have never broken a bridle or line for that matter but I now have a wall collection of broken spreader bars that are generating conversations if Dakine is using a cheaper provider or if kites are becoming more user friendly and we are driving more power of out them???? I found an older triple bar hook I'll be using that seems beefier than DK's current standard two bar hook. See pic.

SpaceRacer · Since 04 Nov 2007 434 Posts Obsessed

Sorry I don't agree. If you want to run a river on a rubber ducky from Wal Mart, jump a 40' gap on a dirt bike wearing a baseball cap backwards or base jump with an umbrella then you should by all means do a 100' glide with a kite. Doing a double back flip on a dirt bike with the right equipment is what separated Travis from the pack. Doing dangerous things with the wrong equipment does not make a boy a man. It's gravity and luck. If so, Ozone should put saran wrap thin leading edge bladders in their paragliders.

Sella · Mon Jun 30, 14 3:01 pm

Sorry Space....I didn't mean using cheap gear is the rush or makes the man. Kiting is extreme and anybody who becomes interested I would hope understands the risks involved but yet they still pursue it because it looks like so much fun. The dirty little secret is it's not until they actually kite the reality of just how much it can go sideways quickly sets in but yet they still continue with the learning curve beat downs. That's the difference....the respect.....the rush....whatever you want to call it they are sticking with it and gaining enough confidence that leads them to hucking mountains for 10 minute glide sessions.

Long story short, I would still like to better understand how they build in gear redundancy based on their experience because thankfully they will continue to do it knowing full well the risks involved.

craz z · Since 01 Dec 2008 130 Posts Montana Stoked

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JWi78hk8oQ

This guy made me sick to my stomach. I've paraglided a bunch and been kiting for over 10 years and never would I give this a thought.

I also don't care that he's on a foil a big one at that. Its whats below that is on every kite made. The failure will never come from the tubes, the bridle, or for that matter any type of kite out there. The line's, bars, chicken loops, spreaders, basically anything below the kite is a hazard waiting to happen.

I think the whole gliding thing is pretty cool to watch myself! (I said watch)

I just know with my paragliding background I wouldn't ever even consider it. A base rig which this guy has might be a thought but then there is the training and cost of that and you need to have a mishap at around anything above 100' or your dead anyway.

Gliding isn't going to drive the sport. Its interesting for sure, just like how Chasta was so gifted when everyone else was just wanting to get a few feet off the ground. He was out there pushing the envelope. Same thing in these video's.

I do like the few videos where a real backup plan is thought of like a parachute or even a paragliding reserve like in the jessie richmond tow up vid.

otherwise the low and slow glides are at least injury recoverable.

Its better to be on the ground wishing you were flying than flying wishing you were on the ground (paragliders first rule of flight)

knewschool · Since 23 Dec 2010 61 Posts Wyoming

I see where you guys are coming from and I agree with basically everything you guys are saying. As a manufacturer Ozone definitely does not think kites should be used for flying like every other company. However Ozone is in continual development testing the integrity of their kites in similar ways to paragliders. Not necessarily because of gliding, but because you don’t want your kite to fail a mile off shore in big seas or when launching with obstacles. Since the beginning of snowkiting Ozone has had problems with people flying with their kites and have had bad luck trying to stop it outright like every other company. These discussions we’ve been having back and forth with Ozone and other experienced snowkiters seem to be getting somewhere regarding reasonable safe practices… Safe practices that try to appropriately define proper limits and considerations when calculating altitude. In a sense it’s like saying “skimming glides are ok, and flying straight out to altitude is not” It’s funny but it’s like drawing a line between someone who is gliding within safe parameters and someone who is performing a stunt.

The risk calculation for expert snowkiters is basically a way to judge impact due to equipment failure, gear integrity, back-up systems… It’s sort of like calculating the proper speed and transitions needed for a terrain park jump, mixed with judging avy conditions since snow can be hard or soft. You can look at someone 30’ off the deck and think, the surface under him is flat and hard. If you looked at him and saw that there was a steep transition and deep snow under him you might think he could safely be higher. “Safe” is the slippery term we’re attempting to come to an agreement on.

Ultimately you calculate your risk by assuming you could fall at any point in your flight and you want a favorable impact surface. The more time you’re within a safe distance the less risk is involved. Gaps and things might leave you vulnerable to serious injury or death, so if you must then you will spend the shortest amount of time possible at that height or over those obstacles.

Right now the standard redundancy back up snowkiters use is a climbing harness with a short webbing sling on the belay loop with a locking carabiner. Some people back up their hook by clipping the biner to the chicken loop. Some people give up the release system and back up the hook and chicken loop. When you back up both you’ll clip into a prusik cord looped on your center line right above the chicken loop. You can clip into one or the other or neither depending on the conditions.

Any ideas or information regarding redundancy backups, equipment failures, and concepts on defining what “safe” is very helpful. Like in that video craz z posted, there will always be a few stuntmen out there, but an industry standard will help define the stunt from the norm.