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Nak
Since 19 May 2005
4304 Posts
Camas
Site Lackey
CGKA Member
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 Sun Mar 18, 12 1:11 am Re: green machines |
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| fisherman wrote: | | Like it or not the future is in safe nuclear. |
I used to think that way until last year when I was closer to a level 6 nuclear catastrophe than I really wanted to be. Safe? Study the WHO report on Chernobyl and then ask yourself how many Japanese citizens will die of thyroid cancer in 15 years. You see, you can't tell the people of Tokyo that they should have been on Potassium Iodide because there isn't enough production capacity in the entire world to supply Tokyo. Of course, our government committed to stockpiling potassium iodide years ago, lucky us. But wait! They never did get around to stockpiling enough to supply even a single city! Or a large town even! Why stockpile potassium iodide when mis-information alleviates your need for it?
One of the biggest lies spread by the government of Japan and an ignorant press was the comparison of radiation exposure on a long flight and the type of exposure you get from radioactive releases like at Fukoshima. External exposure and ingested radioactive iodine are two whole different animals. It's like saying "Don't worry about drowning! You won't swallow any more water while drowning than you drink in a day anyway. So therefore, drowning is nothing to get excited over." Ingested radioactive iodine is absorbed by the thyroid gland, and there it sits wreaking havoc for the next 90 days or so. Instead of spread out over your strong skin for a few hours, it's condensed into one microscopic point in your vulnerable thyroid gland for months.
Another great lie that you all probably heard: "Anti-radiation pills (Potassium iodide) are only a good preventative against thyroid cancer anyway." But wait! In that situation thyroid Cancer is the ONLY threat! (Assuming you're not VERY close to the reactor.) And Potassium Iodide is nearly 100% effective at preventing thyroid cancer. Despite that, we do virtually no stockpiling of potassium iodide.
If even this one, easy, cheap, safety precaution is being ignored, just how safe do you think nuclear power really is?
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beech
Since 21 Aug 2010
486 Posts
Longview, WA
Obsessed
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| Mon Mar 19, 12 1:36 pm |
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| saleeba wrote: | | I find this comment to be hilarious..turbines are an eye sore?. |
There's this place called the Columbia River Gorge Scenic Area that places limits on construction especially in highly visible locations in order to preserve the natural aesthetic. I tend to think its a pretty good idea in such a unique, beautiful spot. You can disagree, but its been in place since the 80's. cheers
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pjc
Since 06 Mar 2005
649 Posts
Addicted
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| Mon Mar 19, 12 8:29 pm |
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"Study the WHO report on Chernobyl and then ask yourself how many Japanese citizens will die of thyroid cancer in 15 years."
Zero from the Fukishima release (according to the exact same people that put together the WHO report).
Eugene was about to put together a "smart grid" this year, but it was blocked. Why? Because a small but dedicated group of activists wanted more study about the health effects of the "radio waves" that the smart grid uses. (These same people probably talk on cell phones every day).
My bud works for EWEB. You can't make this stuff up.
The environmentalists are the biggest enemies of green power.
It's all going natural gas (gasland gas) anyway, because mineral rights are very strong in this country, and it's really hard to stop somebody from drilling who wants to drill (on private land, anyway).
I'm glad there is juice. That fancy electro-gizmos saved my life one time, and saved the life of one of my kids when his birth went a bit sideways.
Peace out.
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Pepi
Since 16 Jun 2006
1831 Posts
Pure Stoke Sports
Shop Owner
CGKA Member
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SD
Since 20 Mar 2012
12 Posts
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| Tue Mar 20, 12 1:33 am |
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| I live in Japan (Tokyo) and I was here during the earthquake. I also used to live in Sendai. I understand the arguments for "safe" nuclear power but until you have felt the fear as a radiation cloud is headed your way, towards your children, you don't understand. The small risk of failure is outweighed by the utter devastation of a true total failure. People should not mess with powers they can't put back in the bottle when there is the inevitable failure. I would prefer to simply never use electricity after the sun goes down for the rest of my life than to have nuclear plant within 500 miles of me. I don't live in Hood River only visit in the summers so I can't speak to wind towers ,that is a local thing, but I encourage you to think deeply about worst case scenarios...because if it can happen it will. When it does, everyone lies to you and you are on your own. The earth is poisoned forever and people suffer. All the pain and destruction can't be undone. It is not worth it. The solution lies elsewhere.
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Nak
Since 19 May 2005
4304 Posts
Camas
Site Lackey
CGKA Member
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| Tue Mar 20, 12 9:17 am |
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| pjc wrote: | "Study the WHO report on Chernobyl and then ask yourself how many Japanese citizens will die of thyroid cancer in 15 years."
Zero from the Fukishima release (according to the exact same people that put together the WHO report).
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So, somehow people died after Chernobyl, but the Japanese are immune? Or is it more likely any Fukushima information was tailored due to the fact that sufficient Potassium Iodide was unavailable? I guess that's not possible since none of the Fukushima reports were ever falsified. But wait! They were! Both the Japanese government and the WHO stated early on that the pressure vessels were secure. It was only much later, when the publicity died away, that it was admitted that there were holes in the pressure vessels from day one. What do you suppose caused the explosions? What's produced when fuel rods are insufficiently cooled?
As far as "Zero", that is of course ridiculous. People have already died form a variety of causes--with symptoms that suspiciously resemble radiation poisoning in many cases. That's from the local newspapers that I've been reading. Also, as far as I know, no final report has been issued by the WHO on Fukushima.
You may argue the number deaths that will be seen, but to say "Zero" shows a complete lack of understanding of what happened in Fukushima. People have already died due to radiation exposure; to suppose that nobody will die from exposure to I-131 when so much was released is ludicrous. Unfortunately, we will never know the final death toll. The Japanese government will never release those figures and the Japanese press will never print them. BTW, that's not conspiracy theory, that's life in Japan.
Making a silly statement like | pjc wrote: |
Zero from the Fukishima release (according to the exact same people that put together the WHO report).
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ignores reality and ignores my primary question. If even the easy and cheap safety measure of stockpiling Pottasium Iodide is being ignored, how safe is nuclear power? There is no argument that stockpiling Pottasium Iodide is an essential safety measure. It is universally accepted. That is, I have not seen a single published paper arguing against it. I have seen many, from varied sources, for it. The US government did in fact committ to doing so many years ago. And yet, it has not been done. What else has not been done?
The Japanese aren't half bad engineers, or hadn't you noticed? The Japanese are also paranoid about radioactivity for obvious reasons. Flying cargo into Japan carries an amazing set of rules and safety regulations concerning radioactive materials; even luminous watch dials are regulated far beyond anything seen anywhere else in the world. And yet, the Japanese suffered a nuclear catastrophe that will have far reaching impact on Japan. It is the utmost folly and arrogance to suppose that we are immune to the possibility of a similar catastrophe here.
It's easy to ignore the risk and believe in the infallibility of our nuclear program when you've not "been there". Last year I was a staunch supporter of nuclear power. Now, I've "been there, done that". I feel like I was chicken little with my head in the sand. "Nope, nothing bad here!" Having to fear a mere change in wind direction opened my eyes a bit. "Accidents can't happen" has been thoroughly proved false. And yet, that is the only defense of nuclear power. There is no argument what the "worst case scenario" is. It's bad beyond belief. The only defense of the nuclear power industry is that we are just too good for that accident to ever happen. The same supporters of our industry told you 14 months ago that what happened at Fukushima could never happen. It's not possible. Yet, it did happen.
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SD
Since 20 Mar 2012
12 Posts
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| Tue Mar 20, 12 6:57 pm |
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The family from Ishinomaki that spent their summer in my house while I was away last summer so that their kids would not be further exposed to radioactive food/air and soil seem to feel that nuclear energy has significant risks and a horrible downside. I can forward your ideas if anyone would like to convince them they are wrong. Be sure to include any helpful information on where they can get a new house, job, school, set of friends, community and tips on how to visit your ancestor's grave site without getting cancer from a still out of control melted reactor. Then you can proceed to outline the safety of nuclear power having satisfied their immediate concerns. Hint: They really don't care about gas prices at the moment.
Sorry for the sarcastic tone I would prefer for my first comments on this board to be one of the lighthearted threads that I have enjoyed reading and learning from for several years but it is hard to be positive when I read comments from people attacking wind and solar efforts in favor of nuclear power on the basis of price, or political leaning. Just come over to Japan and look at "the price" and you will have one less thing you need to think about .... the price is too high.
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Inept_Fun
Since 14 Apr 2005
1417 Posts
Hood River
XTreme Poster
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| Tue Mar 20, 12 9:21 pm |
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You know what's funny, calling for nuclear power then calling people who want green energy uneducated. LOL. If any of you did any research you would know that the reason we are stuck on fossil fuels is because of PROFIT. Do some research into perpetual energy devices if you really want to know what the future of power is. Or maybe not since it would be nearly impossible for some jackass to make billions off.
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beech
Since 21 Aug 2010
486 Posts
Longview, WA
Obsessed
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| Wed Mar 21, 12 9:10 am |
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| Inept_Fun wrote: | | You know what's funny, calling for nuclear power then calling people who want green energy uneducated. LOL. If any of you did any research you would know that the reason we are stuck on fossil fuels is because of PROFIT. Do some research into perpetual energy devices if you really want to know what the future of power is. Or maybe not since it would be nearly impossible for some jackass to make billions off. |
Fukushima was enough to make me nervous about nuclear.
So, I'm curious, do you really think that if someone came up with a super efficient way to produce energy they wouldn't be able to put it out there because of the "oil cartels"? Would they get whacked by the oil mafia? Suppressed by the government? Why couldn't they develop it and market it and make a profit themselves? I'm not trying to be sarcastic I'm just curious if that's the thinking here. A search for "perpetual energy" leads you into a maze of kooky conspiratorial sites that I honestly don't have time to wade through.
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Haole |
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Inept_Fun
Since 14 Apr 2005
1417 Posts
Hood River
XTreme Poster
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| Wed Mar 21, 12 9:13 am |
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| beech wrote: | | Inept_Fun wrote: | | You know what's funny, calling for nuclear power then calling people who want green energy uneducated. LOL. If any of you did any research you would know that the reason we are stuck on fossil fuels is because of PROFIT. Do some research into perpetual energy devices if you really want to know what the future of power is. Or maybe not since it would be nearly impossible for some jackass to make billions off. |
Fukushima was enough to make me nervous about nuclear.
So, I'm curious, do you really think that if someone came up with a super efficient way to produce energy they wouldn't be able to put it out there because of the "oil cartels"? Would they get whacked by the oil mafia? Suppressed by the government? Why couldn't they develop it and market it and make a profit themselves? I'm not trying to be sarcastic I'm just curious if that's the thinking here. A search for "perpetual energy" leads you into a maze of kooky conspiratorial sites that I honestly don't have time to wade through. |
To put it simply yeah I do. The government has raided many laboratories in the past claiming to be close to developing such a device. On a somewhat related note why don't you think all the cars that we are driving now run on gas as opposed to electric???
I like how anytime someone brings up an idea that seems out of the norm it immediately gets written off as some sort of conspiracy or something. To me I think people just apply that term to make people seem crazy, when in reality a lot of the times when you look into the facts what they are saying makes more sense than the BS reasons we get from the government for shit. Its really funny what people believe just because they trust the government.
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Nak
Since 19 May 2005
4304 Posts
Camas
Site Lackey
CGKA Member
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| Wed Mar 21, 12 9:23 am |
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| Inept_Fun wrote: | | Its really funny what people believe just because they trust the government. |
True. But also true: Its really funny what people believe just because they don't trust the government.
"Perpetual Energy" machines and "Perpetual Motion" machines can't work. It's basic physics, conservation of energy and all. Energy has to come from somewhere, you can't take more energy out of something than you put in. You can covert mass to energy, but you don't want to be around when that happens. Just ask the Hiroshima survivors...
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Inept_Fun
Since 14 Apr 2005
1417 Posts
Hood River
XTreme Poster
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| Wed Mar 21, 12 9:56 am |
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| Nak wrote: | | Inept_Fun wrote: | | Its really funny what people believe just because they trust the government. |
True. But also true: Its really funny what people believe just because they don't trust the government.
"Perpetual Energy" machines and "Perpetual Motion" machines can't work. It's basic physics, conservation of energy and all. Energy has to come from somewhere, you can't take more energy out of something than you put in. You can covert mass to energy, but you don't want to be around when that happens. Just ask the Hiroshima survivors... |
Well I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on the perpetual motion thing but it is definitely possible sorry if you don't believe it is.
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Last edited by Inept_Fun on Wed Mar 21, 12 10:12 am; edited 1 time in total |
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quenyaistar
Since 21 Oct 2011
416 Posts
Cougar, WA
Obsessed
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| Wed Mar 21, 12 10:10 am |
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http://english.cbcsd.org.cn/projects/electricity/10637.shtml
This is doable, but the people in charge will ignore it till all the oil is gone and they have sucked up the huge profits.
China and India are becoming car crazy like America, so wars will be fought for oil access. Add all the coal we burn on top of the oil we will be lucky to even have a habitable planet Earth by the time these dirty fuels are used up.
I do not support nuclear power, to dangerous, especially with the idiots that run this world. When I hear US officials say they can learn from mistakes and make it safe I laugh out loud, HA!
I am not a big fan of the giant windmills either, they are an eye sore. I have read when you get enough of them in one place they can effect weather patterns.
I do not like offshore oil drilling, see BP accident for why. I dont like all the drilling in Alaska, because accidents ALWAYS happen.
Lets put ALL this money into gathering sunlight in space, before you know it electricity could be almost free. Lets clean up the Earth and get rid of all these half assed energy solutions, before they kill us all. Look at all the money we have wasted in the middle east, that would buy a lot of sun collectors in space. Plus no blood on our collective hands.
Seriously, its time to stop with the halfassed, "its the cheapest way" solutions, this is America we can literally do whatever we want. Lets tell the rest of the world to Fuck Off, stop importing shit from other countries, stop exporting our jobs so we can make cheaper shit to buy and act like mature adults that hold the interests of our brothers and sisters above the interest of almighty PROFIT!
Guess what, when we get our shit together the rest of the world will recognize, and soon be begging us to be a part of this, and we will rule the world without
having to invade with force, or "intervene" these are I wanna be richer douchebag moves. I thought America was better than that.
One of the biggest lies our govt has told us is we are safer because we started wars in the middle east, BULLSHIT, we intervene in other countries affairs when those countries are interfering with a rich guys ability to profit from that country. The Iraq war was started so a general contractor, Hallyburton, could profit from military contracts and rebuilding the country, disgusting! If we just defended our borders we could cut our military spending by MORE THAN HALF. Thats more money to spend on our new power grid.
Times might be tough for awhile, but our govt prints its own money, so who cares what it is worth to the rest of the world right now. Oh yeah rich people that want to be richer. Look at what we Americans accomplished in such a short period of time during World War 2. Lets apply this to a new PERMANENT power grid solution.
As I see it, right now, we are a world of scared children ruled by scared children; time to grow up!
Rant over....I may be wrong but I am probably right Flame away!
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cosmodog
Since 06 Oct 2005
204 Posts
Stoked
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| Wed Mar 21, 12 11:18 am |
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Perpetual motion: | Quote: | | it is definitely possible sorry if you don't believe it is |
Im sorry you do not believe the tens of thousands of scientists who say it is impossible.
| Quote: | | Lets put ALL this money into gathering sunlight in space |
It just way too expensive. Heres my quick calculation:
$10000 per kg to get the panel in orbit (rocket, fuel...)
1KW per KG of solar panel
Payback: 58 years which does not include the price of making the panel or beaming the energy.
This might work someday but its not even close today - sorry.
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quenyaistar
Since 21 Oct 2011
416 Posts
Cougar, WA
Obsessed
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| Wed Mar 21, 12 12:49 pm |
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They already beamed a micrwave 60 miles in hawaii and converted it back to electricity. That gets you from orbit to the surface of earth. Commercial people will be regularly going to space soon, so the price for delivery will get cheaper and cheaper, and the more panels you make the cheaper they will become.....and the conspiricy theorist in me cant help but think the current predictions of cost numbers and development times are not reality....we will get their one way or another, either by choice or by force. Both will be uncomfortable but the latter will mean much more death and suffering.
Dont use NASA as a gauge of cost to go to space, they are a govt operation and by definition wasteful of resources with way to many overpaid "supervisors". The whole space shuttle program was a totally half assed endeavor, check it out for yourself.
Hell, we have the science to build an elevator to space now.
Can you tell I am tired of the cheap fuel argument, and I have no faith in our govt. Let the poor countries use the cheap fuel so they can catch up with us 
P.S. Lets stop govt subsidizing while we are at it because it just gets wasted and abused, especially corn. Ethenol is just another half assed short term solution doing more harm than good.
Another one, a bit off topic but it shows the thought process of our leadership. Before the 50's Americans spent at least 30% of their income on food, now days we spend less than 10%. A big reason for this is cheap labor, and subsidizes. I have heard the argument that Americans dont want to do the farm work because it is to hard. I would argue it is because it does not pay well, and it does not pay well because Amercians have no leverage because illegal immigrant workers will do it for cheaper, this is no diferent than building factories in foreign countries for the cheap labor. Cheap food sounds great, but it is not reality, it is cheating. This is the goal of the wealthy for every job in America. Lots of poor, no middle class, and a few wealthy folks.
Everyones time is valuable I dont care how long you went to college or did not, or how good you are at a sport. I want to see nothing but middle class in America!
I want fair wages that accurately reflect fair unsubsidized costs for doing business.
I want wealth to have NO INFLUENCE WHATSOEVER on our elected officials, and until then I will argue our govt is a complete joke that anyone in their right mind would have no confidence in.
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dangler
Since 26 Feb 2006
1780 Posts
WINDY SPOTS
XTreme Poster
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| Wed Mar 21, 12 1:04 pm r u FKING KIDDING |
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Inept Thinking : wrote
Well I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on the perpetual motion thing but it is definitely possible sorry if you don't believe it is.
Dude, are you voting for Rick Santorum? Do you also believe dinosaurs didn't exist, or that we did't evolve, just kinda popped up out of nowhere?
On a side note, the Today show on NBC just aired the video of the guy flying with Slingshot wings. They were truly amazed at this breakthrough in impossible applied physics.
One of the anchors said excitedly she couldn't wait to try it.
It's funny what people will believe, alright.
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Inept_Fun
Since 14 Apr 2005
1417 Posts
Hood River
XTreme Poster
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| Wed Mar 21, 12 1:49 pm |
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Haha exactly the reaction I expected to get from u guys. Exactly the reaction the companies that are raping us for billions want you to keep believing. lol. You guys are right the technology doesnt exist burning fossil fuels is the only way. GTFO of here.
RICK SANTORUM 2012... nat
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Last edited by Inept_Fun on Wed Mar 21, 12 1:54 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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