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Snow vs. Water safety
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SpaceRacer

Since 04 Nov 2007
434 Posts

Obsessed



PostFri Jan 02, 09 11:35 am    Snow vs. Water safety Reply with quote

Although there are many transferable similarities between water kiting and snowkiting, there still are some differences, which should be discussed in order to keep people safe. Could we use this thread to discuss these? Some of the thoughts that I have, include:

1) Generally speaking, I am on a size down in kites size on the snow as compared to the water since I am not sinking as much. Unless of course I am in feet of the cold smoke.
2) I have found that snowkiters really need to practice self-launch and landing when snowkiting as you usually do not have a beach of bystanders ready to launch and land you. Self-sufficiency seems to be more important when snowkiting.
3) As we say with water, don't go out any farther than you are willing to swim. With snow it is do not go out any farther than you are willing to post-hole back. Also, do not go any higher than you are willing to fall. It is easy to get carried away on a bluebird day with 6" of fresh but boosting 30 feet and possibly falling could hurt a lot worse than when falling from this height in water. Be mindful of this.
4) Lofting. Seems like lofting in mountain settings could be more common than on water. Not certain but seems that way.
5) When on snowboards, be careful of your ankles and knees, etc. Snowboards (as well as skis) do not "fall off" your feet as easily as water boards. If you lose balance in the air or get dragged, you are going to have a board attached to your body to contend with.
6) Be mindful of frozen lakes, hidden streams, hidden posts, hidden fences, etc. which could lie just below the surface of new snow.
7) Know how to self land and use a leash. Loose kites could skip across snow much easier and faster than along water.

Any other thoughts?

Be safe, SR

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Sol-flyer

Since 21 Mar 2006
1280 Posts
Dude, where's my Bus?
Otto Mann



PostFri Jan 02, 09 12:16 pm     Reply with quote

Great idea SR,

I'd like to include a couple things,...

1) Fast weather changes, As the afternoon fades and the temps drop The risk of hypothermia comes on quick.
Especially when you've been riding all day, exhausted and soaked from sweating the entire time. only to have a nice hike back to the car. Sweat can freeze inside your coat and can be life threatening Wink .

2) Gear limit, Have you ever hiked into the backcountry with
Three kites+bars+pump+harness Question , extra clothes/gloves Question ,
Food and adequate water/beer supply Question ,
and dont forget the video camera to document the great day Question Idea .
(The BKC and terremotto have Wink )

Well, the good thing is you get in shape REAL fast.

-Sol

(Oh, Its a good idea to know how to fix a broken line onthe spot, fix bladders, any kinda of repairs that might bring you back without post-hole'n. Also, learn how to use a kite as a heat blanket/shelter, struts can be used as a brace/sling for broken limbs & also as a sled to carry someone who may be unconscious.)

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JMatic

Since 12 Aug 2008
252 Posts
Boise, In Dat Ho
Obsessed



PostFri Jan 02, 09 12:27 pm    Snow vs. Water Safety Reply with quote

Good points guys,

Also keep in mind mountain wind is much more variable (shifty, gusty and harder to predict) and cold winter air more dense which translates into punchy conditions. You'll be more powered on a 12/14m kite on snow than you would in similar wind in warmer climates.

Yesterday was an example of the mountain switcheroo where it went from 15-18 W to 24-32 SW with almost no notice or visible indication that major gusts were approaching. 14m kiting turned into 9m kiting real quick and with a couple newbs riding became real serious, real fast.

When in doubt what is upwind of you (weather wise), land the kite, close it off and wait till the lofty gusts are past to relaunch.

Have fun, ride hard and kite long.

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SpaceRacer

Since 04 Nov 2007
434 Posts

Obsessed



PostFri Jan 02, 09 12:41 pm     Reply with quote

Good points fellas. Made me think about possible avalanches and also how you cannot see the wind coming at all. Wind is invisible but at least on the water you can see approaching gusts via water turbulence; not so on snow. So many people are quick to huck cornices but would you ever do this in the back country as a skier or snowboarder without proper avalanche safety training and equipment? Kiters do have an advantage over skiers and snowboarders but still....it's only a matter of time. Keep 'em coming.

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kyle.vh

Since 11 Jul 2007
713 Posts
city of angels
Addicted



PostFri Jan 02, 09 1:16 pm     Reply with quote

I have one thought--that safe snowkiting could lead to safe kiteboarding for a variety of reasons.
why? because on snow:
1 easier to relaunch and learn to relaunch + self land/launch
2 easier to get/stay upwind
3 easy for a friend/instructor to follow you around and guide you
4 your standing, not swimming!
5 could be easy to teach 'water starts' on snow, by having the learner 'sit start'.

i guess i'm just saying that a great way to learn would be to start in the winter, on snow.

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kyle.vh

Since 11 Jul 2007
713 Posts
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Addicted



PostFri Jan 02, 09 1:19 pm     Reply with quote

also, i was talking with some friends about avalanche danger.
with a kiter-- it would be interesting. You may have a beacon pointing to you if you got buried assuming the kite would float. interesting consequences for a rescue...
not to be read an endorsement for increased risk taking, obviously.

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pdxmonkeyboy

Since 16 May 2006
6081 Posts
forever labled as the
retired kiter & motorhead Unicorn Master



PostFri Jan 02, 09 1:21 pm     Reply with quote

kyle.vh wrote:
I have one thought--that safe snowkiting could lead to safe kiteboarding for a variety of reasons.
why? because on snow:
1 easier to relaunch and learn to relaunch + self land/launch
2 easier to get/stay upwind
3 easy for a friend/instructor to follow you around and guide you
4 your standing, not swimming!
5 could be easy to teach 'water starts' on snow, by having the learner 'sit start'.

i guess i'm just saying that a great way to learn would be to start in the winter, on snow.



ummm, not so sure about that one klye.

1. Snow is made up of frozen water, commonly known as ice.
2. Ice in its snow form is sharp
3. There are generally more obstacles on land than in the water (trees, rocks, fences, cars,etc.)
4. You can safely body drag in water and if you get overpowered, or lofted, your going to land in water and slow down quickly.
5. slamming your kite into the snow when it is 20 degrees out is hard on your gear.
6. Snow is slippery stuff and it does not take much to fall when trying to start with a snowboard strapped to your feet. A small fall, a pulled control bar = kiteloop, well, you get the picture.

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kyle.vh

Since 11 Jul 2007
713 Posts
city of angels
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PostFri Jan 02, 09 1:45 pm     Reply with quote

pdxmonkeyboy wrote:
kyle.vh wrote:
I have one thought--that safe snowkiting could lead to safe kiteboarding for a variety of reasons.
why? because on snow:
1 easier to relaunch and learn to relaunch + self land/launch
2 easier to get/stay upwind
3 easy for a friend/instructor to follow you around and guide you
4 your standing, not swimming!
5 could be easy to teach 'water starts' on snow, by having the learner 'sit start'.

i guess i'm just saying that a great way to learn would be to start in the winter, on snow.



ummm, not so sure about that one klye.

1. Snow is made up of frozen water, commonly known as ice.
2. Ice in its snow form is sharp
3. There are generally more obstacles on land than in the water (trees, rocks, fences, cars,etc.)
4. You can safely body drag in water and if you get overpowered, or lofted, your going to land in water and slow down quickly.
5. slamming your kite into the snow when it is 20 degrees out is hard on your gear.
6. Snow is slippery stuff and it does not take much to fall when trying to start with a snowboard strapped to your feet. A small fall, a pulled control bar = kiteloop, well, you get the picture.


coming from a guy who doesn't snowkite Wink
trees, rocks, fences and cars are all objects found at water launches, too. Obviously you'd want to choose a safe location and light winds.
I was thinking of a frozen lake in powdery conditions.
this would have few obstacles, as you point out, since its a frozen body of water. slamming your kite into powder is not a big deal, even with its insidious microscopic sharpness. Wink
I'm just saying leaning on snow may have some advantages, and I think others have noticed this. It seems to be easier to learn upwind technique, and starting in snow may translate really well to water, which tends to be really difficult for some people.
I'm not trying to say that one sport is better or that everyone's wasting their time learning on water.

edit to include a link:
http://www.kittyhawk.com/kiteboarding/snowkiting.cfm
these instructors noticed similar things.

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pdxmonkeyboy

Since 16 May 2006
6081 Posts
forever labled as the
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PostFri Jan 02, 09 1:55 pm     Reply with quote

For the record, I've been snowkiting plenty. Perhaps it is easier than when I was taking my 03 fuel out. i don't choose to avoid many sports where there is a potential for injury (obviously) but snowkiting is one of them.

my advice for the total newb..rig small.

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kyle.vh

Since 11 Jul 2007
713 Posts
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PostFri Jan 02, 09 2:01 pm     Reply with quote

GTL and mt haggin combine to have may square miles of safe riding, for example.
also in that link they make a good point: you can learn in lighter winds snow. powder doesn't blow away in 10mph winds, and in the snow, you can learn to go upwind in that, making it a pretty safe learning environment.

monkeyboy, i know you can snowkite, I was just giving you a hard time.

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SpaceRacer

Since 04 Nov 2007
434 Posts

Obsessed



PostFri Jan 02, 09 2:05 pm     Reply with quote

Hey Monkey, so did u quit snowkiting due to the dangers? If so, what did it for you? Please share your experiences so we can all learn. Thanks, SR

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Sol-flyer

Since 21 Mar 2006
1280 Posts
Dude, where's my Bus?
Otto Mann



PostFri Jan 02, 09 3:09 pm     Reply with quote

Lets get some things straight here,...

Snow is way EASY for someone to learn on. However, this is when the conditions meet beginner standards. Like spring hard pack and a trainer kite in winds 10knts and under.

Snow can also be extremely difficult, if your dealing with knee deep powder than you will need to treat the conditions like you would water kiting. this goes the same for teaching.

what i'm getting at is that the texture of snow always changes, while water stays the same. I feel a lot more safe on a mountain side with tree's than i do out past the breaks in the big blue.

-sol

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Kraemer

Since 24 Apr 2006
1736 Posts
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Unicorn Captain



PostFri Jan 02, 09 3:52 pm     Reply with quote

Great Topic...but I'm with PDXMB. ** If the dangers of snowkiting aren't apparent to you** then it's time hang up the kite. Get real. Snowkiting is extremely dangerous for any beginning kiter --regardless of conditions -period.

SpaceRacer & Sol..you both bring valuable information to the sport of snowkiting for those who are experienced kiters. More on this subject is needed; true--but putting a beginner out? You'll need fairytale conditions for that--

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pdxmonkeyboy

Since 16 May 2006
6081 Posts
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PostFri Jan 02, 09 4:13 pm     Reply with quote

SpaceRacer wrote:
Hey Monkey, so did u quit snowkiting due to the dangers? If so, what did it for you? Please share your experiences so we can all learn. Thanks, SR


I was watching a u-tube video of snowkiting and I spilled a very hot coffee in my lap. From that point on, I determined that snowkiting is dangerous.

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pdxmonkeyboy

Since 16 May 2006
6081 Posts
forever labled as the
retired kiter & motorhead Unicorn Master



PostFri Jan 02, 09 4:17 pm     Reply with quote

Kraemer wrote:
Great Topic...but I'm with PDXMB. ** If the dangers of snowkiting aren't apparent to you** then it's time hang up the kite. Get real. Snowkiting is extremely dangerous for any beginning kiter --regardless of conditions -period.

SpaceRacer & Sol..you both bring valuable information to the sport of snowkiting for those who are experienced kiters. More on this subject is needed; true--but putting a beginner out? You'll need fairytale conditions for that--


I think if you had moderate winds and a decent amount of soft snow it could be beginner friendly. Perhaps that is what southern oregon is like, but the gorge isn't exactly known for steady, moderate winds in the winter.

i.e.


   snowkiting yeah!.jpg 

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mit_noslrac

Since 17 May 2005
108 Posts
Bend Oregon
Stoked



PostFri Jan 02, 09 4:17 pm     Reply with quote

After almost getting lost yesterday in a total white out, five miles fromthe car with soaking wet clothes from the sleet and in 0-50+ mph winds (just ask G-man), I came straight home and purchased two Rhino GPS's with two-way radio communications. Getting lost is easy when your tracks are getting covered and you can’t see.

Keep this topic going I love it!

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Gman

Since 11 Feb 2006
4911 Posts
Portland
Unstrapped



PostFri Jan 02, 09 4:37 pm     Reply with quote

Now you tell me its dangerous - no where on my B3 does is say this will drag you to your death (did get it used -maybe it was on the original packaging)
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