Northwest Kiteboarding
Forum | Classifieds | Lost & Found | CGKA | Industry | Sensors | Forecast | Spots | Seattle | Decals | RSS | Facebook

Events | Photos | Search | Register | Profile | Log in to check your messages | Log in 

Making A Lineset
Page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Northwest Kiteboarding -> Gorge / Portland / Oregon Coast
previous topic :: next topic  
Author Message
Nak

Since 19 May 2005
3269 Posts
Camas
XTreme Poster

CGKA Member


PostFri Dec 19, 08 3:22 pm    Making A Lineset Reply with quote

Making a Line Set.

Warning! Long damned post here! Very Happy
This is a hell of a lot easier & cheaper than most people realize. It’s a lot easier to do than reading this post. A good 800# line set can cost $200 to buy; you can make one for around $60. In addition to the cost savings, you’re free to choose any line length you need. Make a good line set and it should stay in tune for the life of the lines.

I’m going to discuss line sets with no sleeves. Sleeves are used to prevent the thin Spectra line used in commercial line sets from cutting the pigtails & leaders they’re connected to. We’ll use 800# spectra to avoid this. I’ve heard that some have gotten away with using 600# spectra sleeveless as well, but I haven’t tried that. Commercial line sets are often 450# or 500# spectra. You definitely need sleeves with lines that thin.

Going sleeveless has a lot of benefits. Done properly, by splicing an eye into the line, it’s the strongest line end available. Sleeveless, spliced lines are easier to make for the individual. Sleeveless, knotless, lines are far less prone to tangle. (And easier to untangle…) Some kites require sleeveless, knotless, lines for the safety system to work. For example, the Slingshot REV and T3 safeties won’t work if there’s a sleeve or a knot on the front lines.

Some people have asked me about Q-line. It’s great stuff for a lot of uses, but not for making line sets. Why? It can’t be spliced. You have to tie knots in it, and the knots don’t have the best characteristics. Every Q-line knot I’ve tested has a breaking strength of around 250#. While adequate, it’s not high enough for my likes. Also, the Q-line sets I’ve tried have all had some slippage in the knots. This has the effect of requiring re-tuning the lines fairly often.

I prefer 800# spectra over the 600# stuff for a couple of reasons. First, I know for a fact that I don’t need sleeves. Second, the 800# line will stay in tune better. Permanent line stretch is caused by applying a load to the line. We pre-stretch our lines by applying a certain load to the lines. As long as we don’t come to near that load while riding, the line should not permanently stretch any more than it already has. The pre-stretch load with 800# line can be about 150# more than with 600# line. So, it’s a lot less likely that the 800# line will take an additional permanent stretch while riding.

Tools needed:
1 sharp (new) single edged razor blade.
1 piece .011” to .015” music wire bent in half. About 2 to 3 feet long. Also bend 2” of one end 90 degrees. This is your fid.
50# white spectra fishing line.
1 sewing needle that you can easily feed the 50# line into.
1 fine tipped sharpie marker.
1 36” steel rule.
Optional: Charkbait or Jerry Brown superglue. Surgical gloves.

OK, enough talking. Let’s make a line set! (I’ll assume that your bar is properly tuned when all 4 lines are equal length when the lines are walked out.)

We’ll make a 20 meter line set. There are two kinds of line sets, equal and unequal length. Some kites have front and rear lines of different lengths, some have equal lengths front to rear. Look at your bar with the lines laid out to see which you have. The REV has front lines that are a couple of feet longer than the rears. You’ll easily see that the rear leaders connect to the lines a lot further up than the front.

Start by cutting two lengths of Spectra, each about 44 meters long. Make one a couple of meters longer if you need unequal length lines. Splice an eye on each end of each line.

How to splice an eye.

The splice is what provides the strength to the line. The sewing just locks the eye in place during very light loads.

I make my splices 15” long. This is a bit of overkill, but it doesn’t take any longer to do and only costs a couple of cents extra. Well worth the peace of mind. I make my eyes 1.5” long; make yours whatever length you prefer. (At least 1 inch. Some prefer 2 inches.) Mark the line 23” from the end. (We’ll call this point M1) Mark it again 3” from M1, about 20” from the end. (M2) Mark it again at 15” from M2, about 5” from the end. (M3) Insert the point of the fid into the line at 17.5” from M1, opposite side from M2. Insert it so it points at M1. Work the line down onto the fid until the point is at M1. Push the point so that it exits at M1. There should be about an inch or two showing at the point. Insert the end of the line into the bend of the fid with about .25” sticking through. (Any more and it will be hard to pull trough…) get it nice and tight right in the point of the fid. Pull the fid back through the line. It helps if you work the line over the point rather than just pull on the fid. Pull the end of the line so that it exits with the fid. Pull the line so that M1 and M2 line up. Work out the line with your fingers to tighten it up, keeping M1 and M2 lined up. You should have a couple of inches of line sticking out where the fid entered. Leave that for now. Lock-stitch the eye now. Thread an 18” long piece of the 50# line in the needle. Start the needle in the splice about 1.5” below M1 & M2. Sew like the attached photo Lockstitch.jpg up towards the eye. The stitches should be just a little bit snug. DON’T over tighten! About .5” from the eye reverse back to the beginning. Have the last stitch exit as close as possible to where the tail of the line is still sticking out. Tie a square knot with the two lines; there should be a little bit of slack here. Thread both ends through the eye of the needle. Insert the needle as close as possible to where the two lines exit, feeding the needle away from the eye. Exit the needle about an inch or two down. Pull on the two lines so that the square knot buries in the line. Pull it reasonably snug and trim the 50# line close to the main line. When you pull on the main line to tighten it, the ends of the 50# line should bury inside the main line. (Optional: use a drop of Charkbait or JB superglue on the line where the square knot is Pull really tight on the eye and the main line. I mean REALLY tight. Roll the line between thumb and forefinger, wearing surgical gloves, to keep the diameter at the glue spot as small as possible.) Now, pull the end of the 800# line we left before. Pull it out so that M3 becomes exposed. Trim the line at M3 at a 45 degree angle. Tighten up the main line and the end should bury inside the main line. Hold the eye and pull on the line, working down to the end of the splice to tighten everything up. Woo hoo! You’re done with this eye. The first time you do this it’ll take a while, by your fourth eye you’ll take about 5 minutes start to end. You might want to practice on a short piece of throw away line first… You’ll notice in the photos that I have an extra mark between M1 and M2 designating the center of the eye. This mark is unnecessary and just makes measuring harder.

Stretching the lines.

OK, now we have two lines, roughly twice as long as we want them. Next step is to pre-stretch the lines. This step is CRITICAL. If you skip this step, your lines will go way out of tune every session.

WARNING!!! This can be EXTREMELY DANGEROUS if you do it wrong!!! You could KILL or SEVERLY INJURE yourself or others!!! We’re going to put a load of around 450 pounds on these lines. That is a tremendous amount of energy, much like drawing back a bow & arrow. A bow that pulls 50# is legal to hunt and kill Elk with. We’re dealing with almost 10 times that pull!!! DO NOT attach anything to the line with any appreciable mass. No Carabineers, no snap shackles, no chain links. Even wet line has too much mass!!! This must be done on a bone dry day with bone dry line on a bone dry surface! A wet line could cut somebody in half. Even with these precautions, ensure that NOBODY is within a 500 yard radius during this procedure. If you’re not knowledgeable and comfortable dealing with this kind of work, DON’T do it. Find someone who is to help you.

There are two ways to do this. The better way is with a 500# force gauge. Since you probably don’t have one of these, I figured out a way to do it without one. Take a two foot piece of 800# spectra. Tie an overhand loop in each end, leaving an eye easily big enough to go around the ball of a trailer hitch. This is your fusible link. Take a 2 foot length of 1/8” amsteel and tie/splice an eye on each end. This is your line saver. Take 25 or 30 feet of 1/8” Amsteel. Tie an overhand loop at each end, leaving a generous eye. This is your stop line. Take a 10 foot length of 1/8” amsteel with an eye on each end. This is your Anchor line. Wrap it around a good size tree or REALLY strong post of some kind right at the base. Remember, you’re betting your life that it will take a 500# load, so be sure it will take at least 3000#. Attach the anchor line to the main line. At the other end of the main line attach your line saver. Attach the other end of the line saver to the fusible link. Attach the other end of the fusible link to the trailer ball of a truck. Attach one end of the stop line to any part of the trailer hitch EXCEPT the ball. You’ll see in the photos that I attached the stop line to the ball. When the fusible link broke it snapped back and shredded the stop line… Notice that anything with appreciable mass is attached to something solid that will not be moved by the forces we’re dealing with. If you attach the mainline to the fusible link with something that has any real weight, you could easily kill somebody, even if they’re a long ways away. Clear the area, make sure nobody is anywhere nearby. The fusible link, tied in this manner, will brake somewhere around 450#. Start driving the truck slowly forward until there is tension on the line, just a little bit. No more than you could pull by hand. Secure the tow vehicle and go back and check that everything looks good. Get back in the truck and drive forward VERY slowly. We’re doing two things here. First, we’re tightening the weave, or the braid, of the line. Second, we’re putting a permanent stretch in the spectra. We’re also putting a big temporary stretch in the line too. You might be surprised how far you go before the line breaks. Don’t rush it, take your time. Stop every foot or two; let the line stretch and the weave tighten. The fusible link will break, ideally at least several minutes after you started the stretch. Secure the tow vehicle and go back. The fusible link should have broken and the stop line should have stopped the main line from snapping back into a tangled mess. Disconnect the main line and repeat for the other main line. (You’ll need a new fusible link.) Great, you now have two pre-stretched lines. Cut both in half right in the middle. You now have 4 lines with eyes at one end.

If you’re making an equal length line set, attach the eyes of all 4 lines to one point. If you’re making an unequal line set, attach the lines to your control bar. Run the lines out like you were tuning them. Mark all four lines at the length desired. Be extremely careful to mark them all precisely. This first mark is M1. Mark M2 and M3 as precisely as you possibly can. Length M1 to M2 and M2 to M3 must be identical on all four lines. This will ensure that all four lines are the correct length when done. Splice your eyes, but leave the end of the line sticking out of the mainline and don’t lock-stitch the eyes. Tighten up the splices and recheck your line lengths. They should be identical. If they’re a little off, adjust the eye in or out as necessary to tune the lines. Lock-stitch and trim the end of the line.

Lastly, check that your safety system works freely. The lines should feed through without binding. DO NOT skip this step!!!

You’re done!

FAQ:

Q: Can I make the four lines and pre-stretch after the eyes are spliced at both ends?
A: Maybe. The lines will permanently stretch a foot or two. It’s very possible that they won’t be equal length after you’re done. Each line may stretch just a bit differently.


Q: Can’t I use super glue instead of Charkbait or Jerry Brown spectra adhesive?
A: Nope. Superglue won’t adhere to spectra. It may seem like it does, but what’s really happening is the glue is adhering to itself and tightening up around the fibers in the braid. Two ways to prove this. Superglue some spectra. Let it dry. Then roll the joint around and bend it. Pretty soon it just pops free. Or, try to superglue some Ziploc bags together. It doesn’t even work a little bit. The bags and spectra are close enough chemically that glue will affect each in a similar fashion.


Q: Can I skip the lock-stitch and just use Jerry Brown Spectra Adhesive?
A: Maybe, but keep an eye on the eyes. Very Happy It should hold; I’ve tried it and had no problems. I’m more comfortable with lock-stitching for the long term, but that might just be paranoia on my part. If the eye slips at all, don’t use the line until you repair it. Remember, it’s not the glue or lock-stitch that provides strength; the splice does that. The lock-stitching just locks the eye when there’s little or no tension on the splice.


Q: How strong are the splices?
A: They should be about 90% of line strength.


Q: Will I notice any difference in handling?
A: Possibly, especially with a kite that has high bar pressure. 800# stretches quite a bit less than 500# line, so more of your pull will go into turning the kite and less into stretching the line. You may notice a more direct feel. A kite with high bar pressure may feel like it turns with a bit less effort. That’s because it will. Very Happy Since the line is stretching less, you put the same input into the kite at a lower tension. Will you notice the difference? I did with my T2 14m. Not a big change, but noticeable.


Q: My factory lines seem to go out of tune a lot, why is this?
A: Your lines probably weren’t pre-stretched sufficiently. Use the procedure here to pre-stretch them, but only if they’re un-damaged. If they’re frayed or damaged at all, pre-stretching may break them. Go ahead and make or buy a new line set. Also, pre-stretching your factory lines may put them wildly out of tune. That’s OK. Tune them up and they should stay in tune permanently.


Q: How do I tune my lines?
A: I covered this in another post.


Q: I’ve got some of this 800# line; the weave looks pretty loose compared to factory lines.
A: That’s because it’s not been pre-stretched yet.

Q: Seems like there’s a lot of waste. The directions have me using more line than I really need for a 20m line set.
A: True. You could cut down on the line used, but it’s easier to cut off line than to add it. I keep the extra line when I’m done and mark it as pre-stretched. It comes in handy to make custom length pigtails to tune your bar.

Q: I have a set of lines that I’d like to shorten. Can this be done?
A: Sure. Cut your lines a meter shorter than you want them. Splice on a piece of pre-stretched 800# spectra. Make the eyes like described here. I’ll get a post done on splicing two lines together. It’s pretty easy.


   01 Fid - well used (Medium).jpg 
   02 Fid insertion (Medium).jpg 
   03 Fid Exit (Medium).jpg 
   04 Hooking the line (Medium).jpg 
   05 Pulling through 1 (Medium).jpg 
   06 Pulling through 2 (Medium).jpg 
   07 Pulling free (Medium).jpg 
   08 Almost lined up (Medium).jpg 
   09 Lined up eye (Medium).jpg 
   10 Working out the line (Medium).jpg 
   11 Finished eye (Medium).jpg 
   12 Line Saver - Anchor line - Fusible link - Stop Line (Medium).jpg 

View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Nak

Since 19 May 2005
3269 Posts
Camas
XTreme Poster

CGKA Member


PostFri Dec 19, 08 3:24 pm     Reply with quote

More pics:

   13 Line Saver (Medium).jpg 
   14 Fusible link (Medium).jpg 
   15 Hooked up 1 (Medium).jpg 
   16 Hooked up 2 (Medium).jpg 
   17 Finished (Medium).jpg 
   LockStitch (Medium).jpg 

View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
kitezilla

Since 22 Jun 2006
434 Posts
gorge
Obsessed



PostFri Dec 19, 08 3:52 pm     Reply with quote

WOW!

Thanks for taking the time to thoroughly describe that procedure. It looks like you have covered all the bases, with adequate safety warnings, protocol, and technique. If I could get that line in red, green and white, I might trade in my Q Power lines for these. I wonder how UV resistant that spectra line is.

I love the way you made the fid.

View user's profile Send private message
Nak

Since 19 May 2005
3269 Posts
Camas
XTreme Poster

CGKA Member


PostFri Dec 19, 08 4:03 pm     Reply with quote

Thanks Kitezilla. I've been on the road for 2 weeks now; I had to do something! Very Happy As far as colored lines, try a heavy duty sharpie marker. The color will wear off over time, nothing much sticks to spectra. But you can touch it up. Q-line color bleeds too... Q-line is spectra too I believe, so UV should be the same.

View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Kodiak

Since 01 Aug 2005
1093 Posts

Slidey



PostFri Dec 19, 08 4:24 pm     Reply with quote

SOmeone has too much time on their hands Smile Thanks for the well thought out and descriptive post! I may try this out the next time I need new lines.

View user's profile Send private message
Blue

Since 03 Jul 2007
469 Posts
I used to be
Obsessed



PostFri Dec 19, 08 7:08 pm     Reply with quote

Great post Nak, thank you Exclamation

I am looking into getting my 9m to handle a bit more wind. It originally came with 22m lines. What would be an impact of having 18m lines on this kite?

Oh, and where do you get 800# Spectra?

_________________
just wear sunscreen

View user's profile Send private message
jtrashy

Since 29 Mar 2008
47 Posts

 



PostTue Jan 13, 09 10:47 am     Reply with quote

hey nak

i did my first splice tonight, great directions! a little tricky getting it to feed through the hole, but getting better at it.

this stuff seems really thick, did i get the right stuff? its double the dia of my 08 lines(pic attached) just worried it might effect light wind days

since you have flown the lines, what do you think?

have you thought of using dental floss for the lock stitch? its knots easily and i think has a 40-50lb strength

thanks!


   kite line dia.jpg 

View user's profile Send private message
surfboy1968

Since 17 Jun 2008
176 Posts
south padre island
Stoked



PostTue Jan 13, 09 11:09 am     Reply with quote

ha..........
Man I would rather spend 200 dollars Laughing Laughing

View user's profile Send private message
Nak

Since 19 May 2005
3269 Posts
Camas
XTreme Poster

CGKA Member


PostTue Jan 13, 09 1:50 pm     Reply with quote

Blue wrote:
where do you get 800# Spectra?


Sorry I missed your question Blue! Jtrashy found this place, seems to be the cheapest around...

http://www.all-americanoutdoors.com/inc/sdetail/12588

jtrashy wrote:

this stuff seems really thick, did i get the right stuff? its double the dia of my 08 lines(pic attached) just worried it might effect light wind days

since you have flown the lines, what do you think?

have you thought of using dental floss for the lock stitch? its knots easily and i think has a 40-50lb strength

thanks!


It'll tighten up and get thinner when you pre-stretch it. As far as it's effect on really light days, I can't say how much it would be... I didn't notice a difference with my T2 14m. It doesn't seem to slow down a REV, but for absolute low wind performance 600# might be better? It should be easy to measure the difference really. I'll have to set something up one of these days...

As far as the thread for the lock-stitch, anything that won't deteriorate and won't break really easy. Dental floss would probably work great, I just don't know if it will rot over time?

View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Nak

Since 19 May 2005
3269 Posts
Camas
XTreme Poster

CGKA Member


PostTue Jan 13, 09 7:07 pm     Reply with quote

surfboy1968 wrote:
ha..........
Man I would rather spend 200 dollars Laughing Laughing


It sounds harder than it is... It really is pretty easy once you've done it once.

View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Mark

Since 20 Jun 2005
3477 Posts
I need my fix because I'm a
Naishaholic



PostTue Jan 13, 09 7:11 pm     Reply with quote

Was wondering if you could post a picture or two to show me how..... Laughing

Very nicely done.

_________________
Cleverly disguised as an adult...

www.naishkites.com

Join the CGKA! Membership is only $10! Sign up at http://cgka.net/become-a-member/

View user's profile Send private message
jtrashy

Since 29 Mar 2008
47 Posts

 



PostThu Jan 15, 09 5:59 pm     Reply with quote

hey nak

prep for 20m and 5m ext are complete. the splicing was a piece of cake.

i am now splicing the amsteel and having a very hard time. im doing it the exact same way and will not pull thru it self, it gets stuck half way. any tips?

when i prestretch the lines can i connect all of them together or just one at a time?

thanks!

View user's profile Send private message
jtrashy

Since 29 Mar 2008
47 Posts

 



PostThu Jan 15, 09 6:30 pm     Reply with quote

instead of throwing all of it in the fireplace, as desired, i ate some food.

now that my sanity has returned, i found a trick for the amsteel. trim the tail that is being pulled thru and hooked by the wire so that the rope diameter is half. in other words trim parallel to the rope foe ~1/2-1/ inch decreasing the dia of the rope end. feed just this thru the wire = pull thru = Very Happy

View user's profile Send private message
Nak

Since 19 May 2005
3269 Posts
Camas
XTreme Poster

CGKA Member


PostThu Jan 15, 09 6:55 pm     Reply with quote

I don't see why you couldn't do all the lines together? I haven't tried it. The main problems I would see would be that you'd need a much larger area. Also, you're storing more energy in the line so be REALLY careful.

I use a different kind of fid on the amsteel, more of a standard fid. For 1/8" amsteel I use a 1/8" steel rod rounded on one end. I tape the rope to one end of the fid with blue painters tape. I then push the rounded end through the line. You can't use much tape or it'll be tough to feed it through...

View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
kitezilla

Since 22 Jun 2006
434 Posts
gorge
Obsessed



PostFri Jan 16, 09 7:46 am     Reply with quote

You can buy some really nice fids from "Tow Me Up"...they are made from knitting needlles, which have been tapped at the cut-off end and threaded.

I have heard that Walmart sells knitting needles which are hollow, also, but haven't checked it out.

If you are going to tinker with spectra, you will have a lot more fun with nice-working, smooth fids.

Don't buy the conventional fid set for $30 though. They are too big for our needs.

Here is a picture of the fids I am talking about. You screw the spectra in to the internal tapped threads:


   purple fid for 2 mm spectra.JPG 

View user's profile Send private message
andrewbanandrew

Since 15 Jun 2009
7 Posts

Kook



PostThu Jul 09, 09 11:47 am     Reply with quote

So I did the math and it looks like Amsteel blue 7/64" (2.8mm) is pretty much the same cost as the Jerry Brown Line One 800# spectra (1.9mm). So if you're looking for something thicker and possibly easier to splice, check it out here: http://www.reddenmarine.com/site/item-details.cfm?id=AMRAMSTLBLU716

If you order a 600' spool (enough to make 8x22.86m lines, or two 22.86m four-line sets), it costs 15 cents per foot instead of 16.

Spools of Amsteel Blue can also be special ordered via Redden Marine or Fisheries Supply in the following colors:

-clear
-black
-silver
-red
-orange
-green

View user's profile Send private message
bwd

Since 04 Aug 2007
275 Posts

Obsessed



PostThu Jul 09, 09 1:06 pm     Reply with quote

7/64 is leader line thick, not flying line thick, way too heavy.
Plenty strong though....

View user's profile Send private message
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Northwest Kiteboarding -> Gorge / Portland / Oregon Coast All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You can attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum