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lldkr
Since 01 Jun 2012
47 Posts
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 Sun Jun 11, 23 12:47 pm Kite rigging, line lengths, trim, etc |
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I've been riding for quite a while but have never paid much attention to how I rig the pigtails on the kite or how I've set up my trim. I'm using Slingshot 4-line stuff from ~2017. I've got some questions that would help my understanding...
Let's say i rig the front line pigtails to the first knot.
Is rigging the back line pigtails on the first VS last knot the same thing as pulling my trim line out the same distance?
Is rigging the back lines on the first knot and the front lines on the last knot the same thing as rigging the front/first and back/last (swapped)?
I've got pretty short arms, so I keep the stopper on my bar in pretty close. If i bring the stopper in closer and let the bar hit the stopper (ie, hands off), can i 'cancel that out' by pulling out the trim line the same distance?
In other words, is pulling out trim line basically the same action as sheeting out?
If i want to ride with a short stopper, I know that I am effectively giving up "depower range". Is there any other reason i wouldn't want to just start with more trim out and a closer stopper?
thanks |
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Kmun
Since 05 Jul 2009
250 Posts
Obsessed
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| Mon Jun 12, 23 1:23 am "i rig the front line pigtails to the first knot" |
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We need to confirm the use of the term "first knot".
First knot from the kite or first knot of the free end of a pig tail?
In general, I agree with your description the front line attachment to relative back line knot settings adjustments do change the approach angle of the kite (nose up or nose down) and can replicate effects of sheet cleating. In essence these adjustments will determine how much the kite acts more like a parachute & less like a wing. Nose (center strut angle) angled up yields more kite drift, setting deeper in the window to drift down wind with less drive upwind.
Sheeting & cleating or stopper balls limit the full range of power & agility of a kite. Limiting the agility reduces it's potential power & depower found within the throw range of sheet-out or sheet-in. A very sheeted & cleated kite will act odd or sort of twitchy.
The stopper ball thing:
"Short arms" are relative to the hooks' elevation/placement at your waist. Placed high your arm throw/sheet potential is shorten while really messing with your center of mass as the weight of your arm is raised. Keep all these things low on your body help you maintain an athletic stance.
If & when the higher the harness hook uncontrollably slides/translates up your torso (under loads) the shorter your arms will effectively be. When this is in play, your potential arm extension up the sheet out lines is reduced & your sheeting out action is limited (in your case before striking a sheet out stopper). This harness hook sliding up your torso or harness deformation is a huge & common problem to one's potential arm throw & effective depower range of the kite.
Maximize your arm length & sheet-out throw:
I would first, take a serious look at your harness situation in keeping that hook/slider rope low on your body & tight to your body.
Notice most modern harnesses are finally coming around to this known problem by adding "sticky rubber" to the inside of their harnesses. Yes this helps immensely but, a good yank from your kite on the right shaped body & the harness will still shift &/slide up the body and effectively shorten the sheet-out distance from hook/rope slider/chicken loop to your max arm extension.
I try to use as much power range of the kite as possible so I insist on a very low hook/rope slider position on my torso. This keeps the bar sheet-out potential range as long as possible.
The lower attachment height is a great mechanical advantage allowing greatest degrees of freedom to the athletic leverages & "kite power or depower".
Try a seat harness or attach seat harness straps to a waist harness.
Demo a new "sticky" harness.
Last edited by Kmun on Mon Jun 12, 23 7:52 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Wind Slither
Since 04 Mar 2005
2575 Posts
The 503
METAL
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| Mon Jun 12, 23 6:37 am I quit screwing with it |
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I was thinking about this the other day when rigging. How I always rig on the middle knots and never have moved my pig tails. The kite says "Less bar pressure" on one side and "faster turning" on the other...I keep it right in the middle.
I used to mess with it. If I thought I was going to be underpowered I would shorten the back lines and vice versa...no more. |
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Kmun
Since 05 Jul 2009
250 Posts
Obsessed
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| Mon Jun 12, 23 8:50 am Yes, "screw with it" |
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| Quote: | | I quit screwing with it |
Please "screw with it" & all adjustments to uncover the kites full potential & utility given the location & conditions.
1. | Quote: | | How I always rig on the middle knots and never have moved my pig tails. The kite says "Less bar pressure" on one side and "faster turning" on the other...I keep it right in the middle. |
Re-check that. Usually, "Faster Turning" is the same turning line attachment point as "Less Bar Pressure"...which will be the point closest to the trailing edge.
The knot choice. Many kite designs have slack turning lines making the kite slow to respond to bar turning input. This is common in Wave kite designs. A slow response kite in The Gorge will improved by changing it into a quicker turning performer by moving to a knot closer to the kite on only the outer, rear, turning lines this in effect shortens or tightens the turning lines. Learn where over sheeting is on your rig because max low end (light wind) power is found just before over-sheeting drops the power curve.
1.b A stable kite flying flat & level transforms into a adjustable pitch propeller who's pitch can be modified by pulling on one steering line while releasing tension on the other turning line. Moving the pigtail to the most trailing/back/"Faster Turning Setting". Can effectively give you more kite power because it's position has greater leverage on twisting that trailing/outboard edge & deforming the "propeller "causing it to either spin/pivot or induce a larger sweeping turn. When kite wings are selectively distorted/twisted, the kite gains quicker/agile pivot type turn building little "power" as it is turning off it's wing tip or may be designed to perform a large radius turn that has more linear distance along it's path of travel & more power based on kite speed through space.
b. Contra indications for not using this "Faster" trailing edge attachment are:
b1. You are a very large human & can distort a kite while setting an deep board edge/loading up to jump or falling backward against the kite on a kite model that is designed & built for turning quickness & not jumping.
b2. Perhaps the kite turns too fast for your liking. When on gets munched by a wave & you don't let go of the bar the resulting pilot error at the bar will get the kite to change directing while your still tumbling.
I always use the "Fastest/Less Bar Pressure" attachment point for easy one handed, quick response kite turning unless I am going to get rolled in the surf & need to extend that bar let-go period to swim to the surface while the kite (if well designed) will find neutral and stay aloft on its own.
IMO River swells need a quick, pivot turning kite design & settings for the rider to remain on a slow swell face rather than a larger radius turning kite (jumping). Free stylers or fast drift, coastal wave surfers will like the less quick more forward trailing edge attachment point (middle or upper) & less rapid kite deforming setting if they want larger radius, linear speed & power build-up.
| Quote: | | I used to mess with it. If I thought I was going to be underpowered I would shorten the back lines and vice versa...no more. |
In this case I believe you were ok with that logic.
At this point one could question kite design with too much slack or stretched out turning lines. It is wise that you want to explore ways retain that setting (shorter turning lines) in play all the time. Meaning, the harness/slider rope/hook height are such that one can use the longest bar throw distance as possible.
A tight slider rope instead of a hook allows one to sheet in closer to their body thus allowing easy long reach out to full depower. In this way sheet cleating/down hauling (limiting full power/depower range) may be avoided or used as a last resort.
Last edited by Kmun on Tue Jun 13, 23 9:19 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Sasquatch
Since 09 Mar 2005
2062 Posts
PNW
Bigfoot
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| Tue Jun 13, 23 9:04 am Re: Yes, "screw with it" |
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| Kmun wrote: | | Quote: | | I quit screwing with it |
Please screw with it to uncover the kites full potential & utility given the location & conditions.
1. | Quote: | | How I always rig on the middle knots and never have moved my pig tails. The kite says "Less bar pressure" on one side and "faster turning" on the other...I keep it right in the middle. |
The knot choice. Many kite designs have slack turning lines making the kite slow to respond to bar turning input. This is common in Wave kite designs. A slow response kite in The Gorge will often be improved by changing it into a quicker turning performer by moving to a knot closer to the kite (shortening/tightening the turning lines).
1.b A stable kite flying flat & level transforms into a adjustable pitch propeller who's pitch can be modified by pulling on one steering line while releasing tension on the other turning line. Moving the pigtail to the most trailing/back/"Faster Turning Setting". Can effectively give you more kite power because it's position has greater leverage on twisting that trailing/outboard edge & deforming the "propeller "causing it to either spin/pivot or induce a larger sweeping turn. When kite wings are selectively distorted/twisted, the kite gains quicker/agile pivot type turn building little "power" as it is turning off it's wing tip or may be designed to perform a large radius turn that has more linear distance along it's path of travel & more power based on kite speed through space.
b. Contra indications for not using this "Faster" trailing edge attachment are:
b1. You are a very large human & can distort a kite while setting an deep board edge/loading up to jump or falling backward against the kite on a kite model that is designed & built for turning quickness & not jumping.
b2. Perhaps the kite turns too fast for your liking. When on gets munched by a wave & you don't let go of the bar the resulting pilot error at the bar will get the kite to change directing while your still tumbling.
I always use the "Fastest/Less Bar Pressure" attachment point for easy one handed, quick response kite turning unless I am going to get rolled in the surf & need to extend that bar let-go period to swim to the surface while the kite (if well designed) will find neutral and stay aloft on its own.
IMO River swells need a quick, pivot turning kite design & setting for the rider to remain on a slow swell face rather than a larger radius turning kite. Free stylers or fast drift, coastal wave surfers will like the less easy & rapid kite deforming setting if they want larger radius speed & power build-up.
| Quote: | | I used to mess with it. If I thought I was going to be underpowered I would shorten the back lines and vice versa...no more. |
In this case I believe you were ok with that thinking "Messing with it" & adjustments can in fact, deliver. At this point one could question kite design with too much slack or stretched out turning lines. Or...consider this hook height migration problem & full bar power-depower travel & distance issue. |
Great topic and info everyone, thanks! |
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