New Ethics... KITE? Yes / No / Maybe

user124 · Since 02 Aug 2012 391 Posts Portland Obsessed

Discussion of covid19 deaths and comparison to the flu are irrelevant. The whole idea of "flattening the curve" means the area under the curve is the same. The idea is to prevent a sudden increase in deaths such as not to overwhelm the hospitals. If the hospitals are overwhelmed then the case death rate goes from 1-2% to 10%+. In addition, many others die or suffer because they can't access medical care for other conditions.

That said I agree that the economy is suffocating and that is untenable and counterproductive. Case number in Oregon are low. Hospitals are at present far from overwhelmed. I hope the health authorities see this and feel we can relax restrictions soon.

But I also wonder if economic stimulus money could be better spent. I know some of the CARES act was allocated to COVID response, but it seems like the more the better. Money spent on expanding testing, contract tracing, quarantine and expanding hospital capacity for COVID patients will more than pay for itself if it allows us to relax restrictions and restart the economy. Someone else said deaths and economy is a false dichotomy. That's true but not for the reasons they mentioned. We need to get the pandemic under control for the economy to return to normal. Regardless of government mandates , no one is going to shop and resume normal activity if they are frightened to go out because of high chance of geting COVID19 and no chance of getting any care in a hospital if they get sick.

ay · Since 11 Oct 2008 112 Posts HR - ME Stoked

Agree with the above.

Capitalism/the economy isn't focused on fighting starvation, infectious disease, mental health, and social welfare. Government should be, but instead the current administration is cutting health funding, blaming everyone else for failures, and not taking responsibility. Relying on charitable giving to solve humanitarian crisis demonstrates how little we value humanity.

The US population is obviously tired of quarantining and it appears it will be ending soon for most regardless of scientific basis, in contrast to other more responsible countries. As an aside, seeing "liberate" protesters while wearing masks is comical. Typical hypocrisy.

Hein · Since 08 Mar 2005 1314 Posts Possessed

https://www.wsj.com/articles/sending-hospitals-into-bankruptcy-11587326607

I had an elective shoulder surgery which was originally scheduled for early March. I moved it up to early February when I saw the pandemic unfolding. Glad I did since I don't think I would have been able to get it done in March as originally planned. If I had waited then the repair I had done may not have been possible.

Millions of women are now not getting screened for breast cancer. How many cases will go undetected before its too late?

And then there is this statistic:
https://www.worldometers.info/abortions/

Over 300,000 abortions are performed by Planned Parenthood each year.

bigjohn · Since 13 Mar 2012 664 Posts Addicted

oliver19 · Since 25 Jun 2019 84 Posts

Hein · Since 08 Mar 2005 1314 Posts Possessed

Did you get a flu shot? Only about 40% of adults do. Yet no government mandate to get one.

eric · Since 13 Jan 2006 1861 Posts XTreme Poster

<<we know that it is not as bad as feared.>>

How bad is that? Looks pretty damn bad to me.

wylieflyote · Mon Apr 20, 20 10:49 am

knotwindy · Since 25 Sep 2011 615 Posts Addicted

Panic is exactly what you are supposed be doing. It lowers your immune response and makes you think less clearly. This makes you more malleable and easier to control. Keep up the good work Shocked

Nak · Mon Apr 20, 20 12:00 pm

I wasn't trying to directly compare Covid-19 and the Flu. What I am trying to point out is that there are other concerns as well. I am NOT advocating stopping the fight against Covid-19 and returning to normal. I am trying to point out this all or nothing tactic is foolish and counter-productive. We can only maintain it for a short while longer. If we fight smarter, we can fight longer.

I am also trying to point out that thinking that one side or the other doesn't care about saving lives. That's B.S. It is a simple fact that if we go too extreme one way or the other, more people will die. I also reject the argument that 3 million children starving to death is a long term problem and that another million or two starving to death because of a damaged economy is acceptable. Perhaps it is because I have personally held children in my arms who almost certainly later died of starvation that I see these numbers as faces, and can not dismiss them as easily as others.

Lastly, I don't think comparing three Governors of the same party is overly partisan politics. I specifically chose those three because they were of the same party and all three affect many of our live's directly.

Washington is clearly doing a far worse job of this than Oregon. That's a fact. If Washington could do better, perhaps nothing is absolute and Oregon could do better as well. Refusing to even examine the subject is simply sticking your head in the sand. As I've said before, I agree with the initial response, get things shut down fast. But the examination of how to do better should have begun IMMEDIATELY after the shut down. The more businesses we can safely open, the longer we can fight. We all agree that eliminating restrictions too early would be a mistake.

I am simply proposing we examine how we might extend our ability to extend our fight. It is simple fact that every day we continue on our path, more people will die. Starvation counts. And sooner rather than later we will lose the ability to continue as we are. Then the disease will race unchecked anyway. That is also simple fact. It is another fact that if we stopped fighting immediately, more people would die. Obviously, we MUST fight smarter if our goal is to save lives. We have no choice if we truly want to save lives, and that is a fact as well.

user124 · Since 02 Aug 2012 391 Posts Portland Obsessed

knotwindy · Since 25 Sep 2011 615 Posts Addicted

bigjohn · Since 13 Mar 2012 664 Posts Addicted

knotwindy · Since 25 Sep 2011 615 Posts Addicted

bigjohn · Since 13 Mar 2012 664 Posts Addicted

user124 · Since 02 Aug 2012 391 Posts Portland Obsessed

All good points bigjohn. Knotwindy you are also correct there is a lot we don't know and a lot of assumptions. The only thing I can say with certainty is that a year from now we will look back and realize we were wrong about a lot of things with regard to this pandemic. I don't envy the public health advisers and decision makers. They are nearly flying blind with a lot of lives at stake. I guess we all need to try our best to be patient.

I don't know what happened to 3) in my list but I'm glad I was able to get everyone to agree on something on NWkite, which rarely seems to happen. I also now realize that typing 8 with a ) after it makes a sunglasses emoji Cool

Nak · Tue Apr 21, 20 8:48 am

Iceland seems to be fighting smart and winning. So far at least. At any rate, it's defies belief that our governors aren't studying Iceland's success and how they got there. I'm not implying that in a different situation we can match them exactly. On the other hand there are lessons to be learned from those that are doing a WAY better job of this than we are.

Hopefully most will accept that "The New England Journal Of Medicine" is a reliable source.
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2006100