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Two kites tangle, one man wins.
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Post new topic   Reply to topic    Northwest Kiteboarding -> Gorge / Portland / Oregon Coast
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knotwindy

Since 25 Sep 2011
385 Posts

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PostTue Apr 17, 18 8:00 am    Re: Two kites tangle, one man wins. Reply with quote

MasPedos wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhIZkdyROFo

that every kite situation is different.

Luckily, very much so, they don't just eject their kites. There are gonna be people who, less experienced, will eject right away. This is not always the answer and if you do eject while the other guy is trying to figure out his/her situation you may cause them some damage.

There is no clear cut answer, but.....

As long as you don't lose your shit you can sort it out.

Keep your kite in control. Don't do anything drastic by sending it up and over and then causing more twists in the tangle that limit your control.

Talk to the other person. Quickly assess who is going to have to do what. In this situation "The Captain" was obviously able to deal and took control. He communicated clearly and and the "Dude Broski" followed his reccomendations.
?



This is from the OP, seems pretty straightforward and simple to me. Seems like a great place to start; be aware, donít panic, try & communicate. Me likey.

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bigjohn

Since 13 Mar 2012
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PostTue Apr 17, 18 9:26 am     Reply with quote

Matt V wrote:

bigjohn wrote:

First:
Your best opportunity for resolving a kite tangle safely is at the beginning. If you stabilize your kite before it goes into a loop then you have performed your share of


I am not sure how to do this. Just steer it, and don't loop it? - that would be common sense that would be knowledge gained at the trainer kite level. How would I stabilize my kite if the other kite flew inside 1 - 3 kite lines? When would the kite loop when the kites tangle all lines???



I think this one is important. Beginners are taught when things go wrong simply let go of the bar. That old adage may not apply to kite entanglements.

With a kite entanglement your kite may have to be forced into stability. Perhaps this can be accomplished via steering of the bar. Perhaps you will need to control it by pulling your steering lines. The point is - Take control of your kite... as soon as possible.

The longer your kite loops the harder it is to control. In the event your kite keeps looping eventually it will reach the point where your lines will not slide.

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bigjohn

Since 13 Mar 2012
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PostTue Apr 17, 18 9:35 am     Reply with quote

Matt V wrote:

bigjohn wrote:

Fourth:
There are situations where pulling your safety is the right thing to do. However just because your kite is tangled up is not necessarily reason to pull the trigger.


Most watching this thread are curious as to when you would be justified in immediate release without communication. When would you define that as being allowed? The answer is key to any rules even being suggested.


Rules suggest to me an authoritative entity that will police, fine, or assign responsibility.

I view this thread more as an interactive educational conversation of opinions. An opportunity for kiters to learn from each other such that we can all be safer out there.

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Matt V

Since 26 Oct 2014
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PostTue Apr 17, 18 10:12 am     Reply with quote

Then we agree that this is not possible to lead to a rule for all tangles, like we have for "wave" right of way.

And "wave" right of way is pretty much a rule. If you break it, no one will call the police, but you will get talked to about it. Do it again, and you may have problems with kiters at that break. Wreck someone's kite because you blatantly did not follow that rule after being told, and you will be seen as owning the kiter you caused damage to, or paying for their gear.

Again, no police, but still a rule.

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MasPedos

Since 05 May 2017
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PostTue Apr 17, 18 10:32 am    Wave ROW, don't be that guy. Reply with quote

I've been lucky enough to kite Maui, Oahu, and Oregon Waves. The only time that ROW was an issue for me was at Mokulea, Oahu. I'm on a 14mtr. RPM and I'm new to the area. I'm trying like crazy to get up wind. In the process of doing it I'm pointing super hard on the Up winds, right hand forward, I've got ROW, and I get cut off by a local.

Here is what I did. I brought my kite to 12 and stopped, allowing him to go by me and said nothing. He's a local, he gets ROW.

Hawaii is like any other place but if you are a new guy it's better for you to allow the locals to have access. In the short run it took me more time to get up wind. In the long run I became friendly with the locals.

In Maui at a secret spot I was going out and saw a swimmer. I gave him a ton of room by bringing my kite to 12. after he passed I cruised out to the break off shore. Upon returning I came in and landed my kite. He came out of nowhere and gave me a big lecture on the ROW and the sailing rules for kites. I thanked him, I said I was sorry and i offered him a beer. He took the beer and said, "Enjoy it, but follow the rules."

In Maui, or anywhere you kite, you represent the next guy who brings a kite. Kites are very distinct and after a while you know who is kiting where.

Don't be a dick. Know where you fit in the pecking order and always kite like somebody is watching you.

My o.

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bigjohn

Since 13 Mar 2012
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PostTue Apr 17, 18 11:02 am     Reply with quote

Matt V wrote:
Then we agree that this is not possible to lead to a rule for all tangles, like we have for "wave" right of way.


umm... getting off topic here but NO. We do not agree.

Rules are bound to happen. Some authoritative entity (Marine, Port, IKO, PASA, local government, state etc.) will likely develop rules related to this topic some day. NWKITE is not an authoritative entity.

Rules are often created when a negative event occurs. Rules might be in the form of bans, definition of responsibility, or tickets. Policing might be funded through some sort of user or license fees.

HOWEVER... through online threads such as this one we can reduce the likeliness of rules by simply promoting safety. If no negative event occurs, it is much less likely that rules will be developed.

We can either act like ostriches and put our heads in the sand or we can be proactive and try to develop, promote and educate about safety.

BTW the best way to avoid rules related to entanglements is for everybody to simply provide a little more space such that entanglements never occur!

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Matt V

Since 26 Oct 2014
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PostTue Apr 17, 18 3:24 pm     Reply with quote

bigjohn wrote:

umm... getting off topic here but NO. We do not agree.

Rules are bound to happen. Some authoritative entity (Marine, Port, IKO, PASA, local government, state etc.) will likely develop rules related to this topic some day. NWKITE is not an authoritative entity.


I apologize for my lead in statement as it may have been confusing. Let me clarify.

It is evident from the discussion that no rule can be made about tangles that could be reasonably expected to be followed by the majority of kiters. That is my position from this discussion.

Do you believe that a rule similar to the "wave" right of way could be made for tangles? If so, then we disagree.

And to my knowledge, no organization or marine authority created the "wave" right of way rule. That rule was made by windsurfers and kitesurfers and is simply held in common knowledge. It is easy to obey, but issues do arise in certain circumstances. It is also followed world wide, though exceptions are made at certain locations as dictated by the local conditions.

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bigjohn

Since 13 Mar 2012
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PostTue Apr 17, 18 3:56 pm     Reply with quote

Matt V wrote:

Do you believe that a rule similar to the "wave" right of way could be made for tangles? If so, then we disagree.


I'm not sure I see the tangents. I did however enjoy MasPedos reflection of his experiences in Hawaii and think he has the right frame of mind.

Wave ROWs are more about who gets to enjoy the wave.

I see these entanglement discussions more about learning and safety.

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Matt V

Since 26 Oct 2014
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PostTue Apr 17, 18 5:52 pm     Reply with quote

Right of way rules ARE for safety on the water. Same as on the land driving around in your car. Even vehicle right of way is yielded to pedestrians (with certain exceptions) - and pedestrians are NOT a tangential discussion to vehicle safety.

ROW's are specifically about "what to do in a situation". This "what to do in a tangle situation" is a ROW discussion. None of this discussion is a tangent to ROW rules.

The product of that discussion would hopefully be an answer to the "what to do in a situation vs what the other person in the situation is required to do".

So far we have come up with the idea of both kiters not disconnecting until agreed upon OR if absolutely necessary such as a looping situation. But again, there are too many variables in this issue to come up with a set of rules that could be reasonably expected to be followed by the majority of kiters.

As far as "wave" right of way? It is specifically designed to make sure a kitesurfer can do what they are in the break to do - ride waves. My specific reference to the "wave" right of way rule is illustrating that kiters have already amended/created a new rule to the standard maritime/sailing ROW rules to include a situation specific to kitesurfing in waves. If only standard maritime/sailing ROW rules applied, then Starboard would have right of way (actually, hold course) and ruin more wave rides than would be had. So the "wave" right of way is for, not just getting along and avoiding collisions, but making the goal easier to achieve overall. Just like a tangle rule would do for getting untangled. "Who is required to do what", is the definition of right of way.

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ezryder111

Since 24 Dec 2012
93 Posts
SE Portland
 



PostWed Jul 04, 18 11:17 am    Rufus incident Reply with quote

Had an experience with a tangle myself last Sunday at Rufus and this post did actually cross my mind afterwords. At the time it was happening of course it was quite chaotic and nerve wracking:
I came in to change back to my twin tip after having some epic fun getting better at riding the surfboard (still new to it). I body dragged out a bit (for safety, HA!), kite at 12, just got into my foot-straps and was ready to go when my kite got slammed from behind by another kite. At first it seemed like we could have steered our way out of it (his kite was sort of "inside" my kite and bridle, still flying), but pressure on the lines made steering difficult so the next thing I know they crashed down to the water and we're being dragged out to the middle of the river.

Thankfully neither one of us ejected and we took some time to try to work it out. I have a few years under my belt but neither one of us knew exactly what to do. Since we weren't fully wrapped I kept pulling on my right steering line. They flopped around for a while but eventually my kite inverted and squeezed out from under his, worked itself free and I was able to fly it and get away. What an incredible feeling of relief!

So, as mentioned before, every situation is different but I can definitely agree about certain things: 1. Do Not eject immediately 2. Stay calm, give it some time to see if things will start to sort themselves out (if you can) 3. Do your best to communicate with your new swimming buddy (even though you're probably super pissed ; )

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jmmorford

Since 26 Oct 2009
16 Posts

 



PostWed Jul 11, 18 2:11 pm    Releasing Leash Reply with quote

If you eject the chicken loop, be prepared to also release the leash. Tangled lines suggest that releasing the chicken loop will not depower the kite. The result may be a power pop on the leash whipping you around by the ass. At that point, you have absolutely no ability to control the kite. If you are like me, I don't release the leash often enough to call on muscle memory in a crisis. So you best think about it before releasing the chicken loop.
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windfun7

Since 23 Aug 2015
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PostWed Jul 11, 18 2:59 pm     Reply with quote

That raises this question: When you want to free yourself completely from the kite are you better off to unclip the leash before the chicken loop safety release?

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bigjohn

Since 13 Mar 2012
392 Posts

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PostWed Jul 11, 18 4:14 pm    Re: Releasing Leash Reply with quote

jmmorford wrote:
If you eject the chicken loop, be prepared to also release the leash. Tangled lines suggest that releasing the chicken loop will not depower the kite. The result may be a power pop on the leash whipping you around by the ass. At that point, you have absolutely no ability to control the kite. If you are like me, I don't release the leash often enough to call on muscle memory in a crisis. So you best think about it before releasing the chicken loop.


windfun7 wrote:
That raises this question: When you want to free yourself completely from the kite are you better off to unclip the leash before the chicken loop safety release?


I think it is important to recognize that while it is possible... it is unlikely that you get a "power pop" simply because your kites are tangled.

In order to get "popped" by the kite a couple of things need to happen.
1) The "popping" kite(s) needs to have efficient shape relative to the wind.
2) There needs to be kite momentum. You will not get popped simply because your kite is slowly looping or straight down wind from you. The kite needs to first build momentum which takes a few seconds.

When kites are entangled they can't build up as much momentum simply because the lines are shorter due to the entanglement.

There are also many countering forces. These forces should tend to balance against any potential "pop"
1) Your body weight (and the friction from the water around you)
2) The other kiter's body weight (and water around them)
3) The opposite / countering kite

and...

If you have pulled your first safety there are even more factors. Primarily that your second safety is designed to simply flag your kite. Granted it is likely that this might be less efficient than normal due to the additional line drag, however it should still work.

So while I still recognize that situations can occur where you need to release from your kite I still argue that in most situations you are better off simply making a quick mental note of where your safeties are (so you are prepared), but leave them connected and try to sort out your kite.

And I can't think of a situation where a person would be better off pulling their leash safety before their chicken loop safety.

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knotwindy

Since 25 Sep 2011
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PostWed Jul 11, 18 6:23 pm     Reply with quote

Also, consider that completely releasing your kite is a last resort. If you have to do it, of course, use it but remember you have now potentially put anyone downwind of you in danger.
As far as getting dragged backwards, unless you are doing handle passes(and maybe not even then) your leash should not be attached to the rear of your harness but on the side where you can easily reach it anytime.
Breathe, assess, work it out.

Or When in danger or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout
Then scream and yell and run like hell

Which ever seems best to you.
This should be a basic kiting skill. If your first choice is to panic and pull, you might want to consider more lessons or a different sport. Just my opinion.

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kbrossel

Since 26 Aug 2012
16 Posts

 



PostThu Jul 12, 18 7:27 am     Reply with quote

Brings up an interesting question. One post commented on being dragged ass backwards by your leash. I have always attached mine to the spreader bar for easier access instead of the back of the harness as usually designed. Any ideas on this?

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bigjohn

Since 13 Mar 2012
392 Posts

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PostThu Jul 12, 18 7:51 am     Reply with quote

kbrossel wrote:
Brings up an interesting question. One post commented on being dragged ass backwards by your leash. I have always attached mine to the spreader bar for easier access instead of the back of the harness as usually designed. Any ideas on this?



Good point (originally knotwindy). Leash needs to be connected from the side or front of your harness so you can visually see your release if you need to pull it. Also, being pulled from your side or front is much easier to orient from vs getting pulled backwards.


Also, make sure you have your leash the proper direction. I have seen some beginners put their leash on backwards. You can't reach the safety release if you put it on backwards.

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voy-tech

Since 08 Apr 2014
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PostThu Jul 12, 18 8:09 am     Reply with quote

Yup - leash attachment in the back is a very bad idea, even if you're unhooking - or especially when you're unhooking and riding suicide. Even pro's started putting their leashes on one side of the harness since if the kite lines get messed up and kite is in deathloop mode you have very slim chance of reaching for the leash release.

Short video showing what happens during a handle pass gone wrong with leash attached to the back: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caDLkoOJODY

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