Before you buy new gear, something to think about

Moto · Since 03 Sep 2006 2698 Posts Still a gojo pimp! Moto Mouth

lloyd, thanks for posting this up. This is relevant information when purchasing kites.

There is some discussion going on about what wouldove, shouldove, couldove, done - Generally speaking whenever there is an accident you can generally point the blame at multiple parties - including the person that was injured. The law recognizes this. Each state deals with it differently. Generally - they just assign comparative fault. 30% for this guy. 40% for that guy. And 30% for the last guy. And then assign responsibility accordingly.

Dr Makani · Since 02 Jan 2014 3 Posts Kook

Hi,

this topic got cross posted in another forum and discussed there. I am not a well known poster here, but out of courtesy I wanted to share what's been said. But first and foremost I am glad the OP lives to tell the story.

The subject matter is exactly how we make ends meet; we are retained by major manufactures to testify in regards of manufacturing and safety, products and services. Our average restitution claims are between $250 - $750mil. And no, it's not kiteboarding or any related sports, but our industry we represent is also considered a high risk one.

With that having said, the average John Kite needs to face a few realities in his/her activity. And no, we can not argue this or debate if this rule would make sense, because we don't make them and we are not the judge. It is how it is ...

As said before you need to consider who has jurisdiction over this accident. As mentioned the US is split into 'comparative' and 'at-fault' states. The difference is, how restitution and responsibility are awarded. The easier states are the 'at-fault' states. If one of the defendant is considered 51%+ at fault, he/she/it will carry the burden and is on the score board (which means pay). The rest of the defendants is off the hook.
Different game with 'comparative' players. The court (and jury) will decide how much and how many of the defendants will participate in the game. Some of these lawsuits have 70+ named defendants. Anyway - as you score liability points in thses cases your payout will raise; 40%, 50%, 70% ... It can be that crazy that a city gets to pay a million bucks because the light pole a drunk driver hit didn't have the proper permit to be there.

Well, now what's my unsolicited advise? Do EVERYTHING you can to inspect and test your new product (kite, gear ...). The more 'expert' you are the more is expected from you. And yes, the lawyers 'from the other side' will fine comb social media how much you consider yourself an expert. Playing 'blond' is nearly impossible if a considerable amount is on the score board. If you can proof, that you have done everything human (some supernatural) possible beyond any doubts, your consideration as perpetrator might be dropped - I said MIGHT.

Product liability insurance is not a silver bullet. For any product or service. Doesn't matter if it's a kite a car a wheelchair a toaster or what-ever - any product and service!

So, bottom line of unsolicited post: If you don't already do it, then est your new gear. Measure your lines. The moment you post here you are considered an expert and it may cost you ... Very Happy

So, get insurance for yourself and let the insurance companies settle your claim between themselves. They do have a mediation process in place which is beyond our horizon ... Laughing

Well then, Happy New One and safe sails

Slappysan · Since 13 Jun 2012 309 Posts Obsessed

How does one look up which companies have insurance?

bwd · Since 04 Aug 2007 385 Posts Obsessed

In case anyone still thinks manufacturer's liability insurance is the solution:

The large companies that can afford multimillion dollar product liability policies, can also afford to pay their own lawyers. In fact, in most cases, they would rather pay their lawyers $1M than pay a claimant $100k, because a finding of negligence or defect in their product may close their doors forever, through bad press, other claimants and greedy PILs coming forward, declining brand image, escalating insurance and legal costs, etc, etc.

And, consider how many factors are involved.
Suppose the injured rider had a leash he couldn't release.
Did it malfunction? Was it made by another manufacturer?
If he had a head injury, was his helmet defective?
Was it made by someone else other than the kite maker?
Maybe his injury was that party's fault.
Did he trip?
Maybe it was defective booties not a kite defect that really caused the injury...
etc, ad nauseam.
Try to make a product liability claim, and a manufacturer's lawyers are likely to make this type of argument, to the tune of >$500/hr, until you are dead broke and your attorneys have stopped answering your calls.

On the other hand, check your gear, your forecast and your head, you may get better results.

Dr Makani · Since 02 Jan 2014 3 Posts Kook

jeremy · Since 18 Aug 2006 276 Posts Manzo & HR Obsessed

Let me get this straight: this is a thread about Caution not having insurance posted by a kiter that appears to also not have insurance. Classic.

I have some Caution gear, it's damn good stuff. They are a company of hard-core kiters, they probably aren't into the whole insurance mind-set, just focused on kiting. They definitely should do more for you than just replace the bridles, but asking for $65K, man, that means all future kiters have to pay more for their kites, not cool. Yeah, the kite was defective, but you were behind the bar. Yeah, harsh but real.

My first Naish kite came with big DISCLAIMERS, use at your own risk. It didn't even have a release on the chickenloop, a real death trap. I thought that was the whole thing in kiting, use at your own risk. Guess I'm a first generation kiter that doesn't take anything as a given. I mean, why hook in when you can just depower the kite and launch unhooked. Prevents getting yarded for all sorts of things that can go wrong.

Godlike · Since 25 Sep 2008 111 Posts Stoked

File a report with the consumer products safety commission...may force them to recall.

http://www.cpsc.gov/en/Recalls/2014/Cabrinha-Kiteboarding-Recalls-H2-Binding/

Justsmile · Since 20 Jul 2009 1530 Posts Not Portland XTreme Poster

Classic. Someone posts on here something they know nothing about. Lloyd had and has insurance. Probably better insurance than most on the forum. Stop making claims to attack Lloyd and his trying to bring something to light to avoid someone else getting injured in the future. Reality- caution fucked up on this one! Lloyd points it out and raises good questions and some Jeremy above deduct Lloyd had no insurance. This could have happened at the sand bar or event site and the injury could have been just as bad!! Time for more wind and water so some people can get their head clear and off the keyboard!

lloyd · Since 16 Aug 2007 108 Posts Hood River Stoked

To correct. I have my own medical insurance. Have my entire life. I would never expect anyone to pay my way. Been a happily employed professional for 15 years. Pay my taxes and even donate money when I can. The State of Oregon requires that my insurance company get reimbursed first if I were to receive any settlement. Not my rules, that's the law. When you start adding up all the numbers and the expenses related to the accident, (the hard costs) the number gets really large, really quick. That's before you add in any money for me. As mentioned, the unfortunate thing is that I really like the kites. But.......lots of other companies make nice kites too AND have product control measures in place, as well as liability insurance. The point of the story is that there is no way for me (or you) to seek reimbursement for either some or all of my (your) expenses when the company has no liability insurance. Liability insurance gives me (you) an avenue for seeking reimbursement. The process of reimbursement determines who's at fault and to what degree. Without it, you can only get reimbursed for what the company or individual has the ability to pay (simplistic version). All they have to do is file bankruptcy. Caution has no assets, the owners of Caution have no assets or ability to pay. It would be pointless to sue. It would cost me more to go through the process of seeking reimbursement than any reimbursement they are able to pay. By being irresponsible business owners they skirted around being fiscally responsible for their mistakes. You can argue who's at fault, but I think we can all agree that Caution has partial blame. They're not innocent in this. There's no way to hold them accountable. What about next time? What if this wasn't the first time this happened? What if I just happen to be the only person to have lived through it and identified the problem? Right, wrong or indifferent, as a consumer I'm stuck with the tab. Love the vibe of Caution. Love the grassroots ideology. That's why I bought their kites. But at the end of the day, they don't give a shit and they can't back their product. Maybe that's cool for you, but it's not cool to me. Old school means we take care of each other, you do the right thing. Teach the young and respect the old. Do things with soul for the right reasons. Ain't anybody more old school than me. Caution isn't old school and shouldn't be labeled with that distinguished honor.

flipper · Since 17 Oct 2011 320 Posts Obsessed

I think lawsuits are a form of civilized war. If someone/something hurts me by accident/omission/ignorance, I am ok with that and I will not fight (even if their pockets are deep). Since kiting is about as far away from war as I can think, maybe a lawsuit is not the right thing to do - ever. It just seems like bad karma to me.

However, if Caution forced me to buy their kites and took away my Slingshots… and then I got hurt. There would be hell to pay.

C Johnson · Since 17 Apr 2009 854 Posts Seattle Opinionated

its always important to test your gear before just diving in with it. especially something new. self launching in high winds on a brand new kite is asking for trouble. I don't care how many times you've done it before. You should have had someone hold the kite while you checked it out first. considering how drastic the difference between front and rear lines was it sounds like something that could have easily been detected with someone holding your kite at the edge of the wind window

It sounds like caution made a mistake but you failed to catch it until it was too late. This does not make them responsible for your injuries. Kiting is dangerous and you need to take responsibility for participating in a dangerous sport. know the risks.

glad you're all healed up. if we expect the kite companies to pay insurance bills then you can expect to see the cost of insurance built into the cost of the kites.

dwaynej · Since 09 Sep 2013 207 Posts Stoked **CGKA Member**

Moto · Since 03 Sep 2006 2698 Posts Still a gojo pimp! Moto Mouth

Hey everyone - there have been some very important points made in this thread and I feel we can all learn from them.

But please - stay respectful of eachother. We come from different backgrounds and have different opinions about the way we feel life should work. If we start disrespecting eachother we will miss this.

lloyd posted this to help out the nwkite community - and many others - because since this post it has carried over to other forums.

This is a safety issue - and it affects ALL OF US. If this sport is perceived as unsafe we could have beach closures. This is already happening in other parts of the world - and this country.

To help summarize some important points:

- lloyd purchased a kite. It came with the wrong bridal. He got f*cked up. We are all thankful it wasn't any worse. The company doesn't carry liability insurance.
- For some this important. Others couldn't care less.
- BWD emphasizes the importance of checking your gear. The best way to resolve an injury is to never let it happen. While BWD and lloyd appear to have differences of opinions - both of them make valid points. We are all now aware that kites do not necessarily come with the correct bridal. So lets all work on being safety conscious and check our gear to help prevent more accidents.
- This thread even gives you a brief summary of the law and some legal tactics companies use to avoid paying up (whether you feel they should or shouldn't pay up is a matter of perspective).

So anyways - back to some really important stuff - who's kiting Rooster this weekend? Smile

kitezilla · Since 22 Jun 2006 453 Posts gorge Obsessed

The subject of "insurance" is very much in the news these days... and will be for at least another year, as the Affordable Care Act runs its course. I think that the easiest to understand explaination of "exactly what is insurance?"... was put forth in the the Simpsons episode, where the hurricane hits Springfield, and blows away the Flanders house:

Ned Flanders: Well, sir, everyone's alive. Guess that's something to be thankful for.

Homer: Now, that kind of attitude's not gonna get your house back.

Marge Simpson: I'm sure your insurance will cover the house.

Maude Flanders: Uh, well, no. Neddy doesn't believe in insurance. He considers it a form of gambling.

.............

dwaynej · Since 09 Sep 2013 207 Posts Stoked **CGKA Member**

srch4wind · Since 27 Mar 2011 11 Posts

Wow…I never even considered having to put my new kites through preflight checks as well as bridal measurements. What a pita, which is why it won't happen. Kiteboarding is risky, it's stupid risky when the kite manufacturer f's up. which they did. The very least we can ask going into the water, is that the kites are actually checked at the factory. Thanks Floyd for posting this, my two young sons will be flying kites from reputable kite manufacturers, and now I get to check the s out of them making sure they are what they are supposed to be...

I'm just a contractor and I need 3 million in insurance, why are they not insured???

Good post Floyd...

Weaz · Since 23 May 2012 360 Posts Beaverton Obsessed

A little winter troll told me this wouldn't have happened with a c kite.