Aeolus
Since 20 Apr 2010
354 Posts
Gold Beach, OR
OR-SoCo-Aficionado
Sat Dec 14, 13 8:53 pmLow-tech sliding connection
pros are going low tech on the power connection this last year....
can't say that I'm going to go no leash, no trim, low-tech release. But I'm inspired.
I'm working my way through all the sliding spreader bar threads...I've been using the rash guard under the harness method, but I'm gonna homespin a slider. Any favorite hardware/software that people are using in the waves?
kitezilla
Since 22 Jun 2006
453 Posts
gorge
Obsessed
Sun Dec 15, 13 1:43 pm
Thanks for posting that clip.
Looks like he was playing around with 2 or 3 different bar set-ups... one with a powerline adjuster and one without a powerline adjuster, but with a stopper ball about 30 inches up on the power-line.
Judging from my 4 years of using a simple sliding-ring-on-a-rope set-up, the length of the rope he is using on his spreader bar is exactly the right length to use, and the shackle he is using, without a pulley, is just the right connection to the rope. The metal on spectra rope is really nice in that, with the rope length adjusted as he has it (not too tight and not too loose), the shackle slides with just the right amount of resistance (not too sticky and not too fast). So, I would suggest that you set up your rope-bar contraption just like his, as a starting point. Get a long (12 inch) old spreader bar (aluminum is OK, since there is no real force on it), and cut off the hook and then tie on the rope. There is a way to tie on the rope, so that it stays centered over the length of the spreader bar, and does not rotate the bar into your gut.
When you give up the chicken loop, and go to a shackle (make sure it is the expensive one, like a Ronstad or Wichard, with the end-hinge, and NOT the $10 one, with the long side-catch arm!)... then, you give up the ability to "handle pass", but you gain a lot in the "simplicity and lack-of-bulkiness" category.
There is a way that the bar can be set up, like the one in the video, where he has NO powerline adjuster, but has only a stopper ball... and the bar can be set up WITH a unique powerline adjuster, modeled after the "Zeeko" invention, which uses a LONG double power line and a couple rings or sliders. There is also a way to set up the bar, whereby this double power line can serve as a 10 foot long "mini-fifth line" safety. If the bar is set up this way, then, if the bar is released, the power line acts as the safety. This system would work on the kites that still use the old IDS Cabrinha system or one that F-1 still uses. The kiter would have to give up the stopper ball, however, to allow the bar to slide up the power line the needed 10 foot, but you keep the ability to adjust the power line, which is convenient. The disadvantage of having the double power line is that it give you one more line to tangle with in the "washing machine".
No kiter who has "safety" as a main concern would ever go out in waves like those in the video, so none of this applies to "normal" kiters, but I can understand why a "high-risk" kiter would want to simplify his gear... by giving up the nasty-line-grabbing hook and the stuff on the chicken loop, and balls, and swinging loops on the power line adjuster, ... all the objects that can snag lines and twist around, and knot-up... after getting tumbled in waves like that, a lot of kiters get an "epiphany" from the close-call, and right then and there decide to get rid of as much "excess" stuff, as possible.
Here are some screen shots of his different set-ups:
PL Adjuster.png
stopper ball 2 feet up.png
stopper ball, no PL Adjuster.png
eabmoto
Since 10 May 2012
116 Posts
seattle
Stoked
Sun Dec 15, 13 2:23 pm
Make a sliding spreader bar, you'll never look back. They're cheap, easy to make and work great. I've been on a setup like the picture above for about 6 months. I like it a lot. I did keep a clam cleet in mine though, to have some trim adjustment. I hook my snap shackle to a solid stainless steel hoop that runs on the rope on my spreader bar.
Aeolus
Since 20 Apr 2010
354 Posts
Gold Beach, OR
OR-SoCo-Aficionado
Sun Dec 15, 13 9:14 pm
Truly a comprehensive post Kitezilla...thanks for spending the time
Eabmoto...just the kind of comment I need to hear.
kitezilla wrote:
No kiter who has "safety" as a main concern would ever go out in waves like those in the video, so none of this applies to "normal" kiters, but I can understand why a "high-risk" kiter would want to simplify his gear...
I signed the waiver!
Freeride Kiter
Since 08 Jul 2011
701 Posts
El Sargento, B.C.S. Mexico
Instructor
Mon Dec 16, 13 8:41 am
Also worth checking out some of the kite buggy setups with sliders like that. Quite a few buggy riders have their own creations. _________________ "I have often regretted my speech, never my silence" ~Xenocrates
airon^
Since 07 Aug 2013
290 Posts
Durango
Obsessed
Mon Dec 16, 13 9:47 amyou may have already seen this, but...
Don't rely on side snap shackles as your primary release. They may not release under load. I tried to release one while hanging my full weight on it - no joy.
The kind I am talking about is pictured in this link:
Here is what I came up with independently and of course, now find others are doing.
As far as the sliding spreader bar, I think removing the hook and changing the pull to a point close to your body gives you most, if not all of the advantages sought by the sliding attachment. The sliding attachment also introduces a somewhat tricky characteristic when it slides from side to side unexpectedly.
I am not saying the slider is wrong or bad but, again, simply that I think most of the benefits come from moving attachment close to your body.
Regardless of whether you choose to go sliding attachment or not, I hope this helps you design the business end of the system.
BTW if you are making a trim line it is best to make the line "double thick" by running the tail of the splice inside the line. This enhances the wear of the line by making it keep a round shape. I run it far enough to ensure it is double as far up the line as I expect to sheet the bar. I use 3/16 spectra or vectran. I also really "feather" out the end of the tail so as not to create a bump inside the trim line.
For more on line splicing read the posts by NAK. "How To: Making a Dual Layer Depower Rope" and "Making A Lineset". Two of the best posts I have ever read.
while you can go rope to rope, I prefer a ring of some kind and a ball to act as backstop for the bar if you let go
Ball at junction of trim an front lines.jpg
1. Spreader bar with fixed ring
2. Spreader bar with soft attachment of ring
3. Wichard 2673 shackle and release ring
4. Ball at end of trim line to stop handle. I drill out ball for friction fit on splice.
5. 3/16 Spectra spliced inside itself halfw
Bar overview.png
There is no trim but I have never regretted not having it. I make the trim line long enough that the kite would depower if I let go of the handle.
Bar with shackle overview.jpg
This is just a loop welded on at a 45 degree upward angle
Spreader bar with fixed ring.jpg
If you want a sliding attachment you would just put a ring like this on a piece of Spectra or Vectran tied to the ends of the spreader bar
Spreader bar with flexible rope ring.jpg
Wichard 2763 with a piece I found in my parts bin to use as a release handle. You could use almost anything for the release.
If I were a new kite boarder, I would stay away from these designs until I was quite comfortable in a variety of conditions like well overpowered.
I have been experimenting with similar homemade bar designs and slider bars with an emphasis on simplicity. Kitezilla gave me some great pointers too.
I love the simplicity of these bars. I also like the way they make the cost $550 bars seem that much more ridiculous.
All of these pics make me want to go straight to my garage and tinker.
Maybe we should start a club with lots of beer.
demo243
Since 16 Dec 2013
21 Posts
Tue Dec 17, 13 4:47 pmJust set one up myself
I just set one of these slider bars up for myself. Tried it once with the hook still on the spreader bar and just had trouble with it catching the hook, so I was waiting to catch a deal on a second spreader and then cut the hook of my old one.
Here is what I am running
Hacked off hook, but left the small loop so I can still use the hold down strap. Then ran some spare Dyneema across the bar with knots on either end and just a simple steel ring. Clip your CL right into the ring. Kinda of a pain cause you have to operate your CL every time, but keeps it simple and still allows use of stock safety release. Also wouldnt work if you self launch from a fixed anchor...
I have since made the knots on either end a bit bigger and all tied the end back over just for extra safety.
Works pretty well. Have two sessions on it so far. Seems to "stick" a little bit though as the ring sorta "notches" itself in the dyneema. Been looking into other options. Picked up some of those ronstan shock block sheeveless blocks, like the bridle pulleys hoping it would slide better, but not sure havent tried it yet.
Also thinking about picking up a replacement hook for a Jay designs slider bar. Been thinking of other options, a locking carabiner like for climbing could work, or you stock CL though a snap shackle. I just dont trust the snap shackles to release. North spent alot of time on their CL and it works great, and I paid alot of money for it lol, so I am going to use it.
I am also super interested in Engine's slider bar, that carbon set up looks real clean and simple. Also want to check out their harness, would love to see one in person.
The first pics are from a set up I made to see how much the hook would travel from side to side with a longer line. It turns out that that you only need as much travel as a larger spreader bar will provide. The second reason I made this slider set up was to experiment with a cutoff spreader bar with a line running through it. It worked well. In the first picture you will see how I reshaped the ends with a plumbers torch and screw driver. The ends were also wet sanded smooth. Similar to the JAYBar, I added bungee cord. This allowed me to unhook and have the hook stay centered and up for hooking back in. I am not sure if there are any kite boarders that want to have the functionality of a slider and have the ability to unhook. I know I don't, so I have recently abandoned this project. The regular spreader bar/slider combination meets my needs.
This bar in the last pic is similar to others, but I used a modified Slingshot Surefire QR the same way you would use a Snap Shackle.
hook slider close.jpg
hook slider bung.jpg
hook slider all.jpg
sling spreader.jpg
chrissmack
Since 08 Jun 2005
524 Posts
portland
Addicted
Tue Dec 17, 13 10:06 pm
years ago some guy made this (there was a video, but i cannot find it)
it was an extruded metal piece, shaped like a hula hoop he wore around his waist. his CL hook spun around this track. really complicated, really crazy.
the guy would boost, let go of his bar and spin in circles, like a yo yo. or a figure skater. the ultimate sliding spreader bar.
MTBob
Since 11 Jan 2013
10 Posts
Wed Dec 18, 13 8:51 am
Cool. I like looking at everybodys ideas.
Here's some pics of my "sliding spreader bar" and a sort of glide specific bar setup I'm still working on.
Been using this as a "sliding spreader bar" for 6 years or so. Works great. Stays tight
to my torso, there's just enough friction to keep things from flopping about, it's cheap, and
it's pretty bomb-proof. One piece of webbing folded over itself to make
harness2.jpg
bar2.jpg
complete2.jpg
I can slide the trimmer up and down the c/l rope to set my bar throw.
trimmer2.jpg
When I'm kiting around and doing tricks and stuff I clip into chickenloop/shackle which gives me a below the
bar spinner and a safety release. If I'm going to glide I hook directly to the amsteel loop.
shackle2.jpg
kitezilla
Since 22 Jun 2006
453 Posts
gorge
Obsessed
Wed Dec 18, 13 10:44 am
MTBob,
Very creative. I like the webbing idea. It may have just the right amount of "stickiness" and "slipperiness". The webbing may also help distribute the "waist pinching" force, so that a spreader bar is not needed. I have found that some form of a spreader bar is needed with a rope set-up. Here is a picture of a spreader bar made from half-inch PVC... and I have found that even half inch CPVC has enough stiffness to keep the forces from pinching the waist.
As far as using a "loop" of rope in a shackle, I think that it is always recommended to use a metal-on-metal connection, as in the picture of the "ring and shackle".
Here is also a picture of the way I tie on the rope to the spreader bar... otherwise, I have found that the spreader bar can rotate up or down, on an arc, and push into the gut. I like having the rope tied this way so that the spreader bar stays in a normal position.
Thanks for the ideas, guys.
mwk PVC spreader bar 3.jpg
mwk ring and shackle 2.jpg
nwk 1 tie on rope.jpg
ShiverMeTimbers
Since 26 Feb 2013
381 Posts
Gig Harbor
Obsessed
Wed Dec 18, 13 5:55 pm
man, this is a great thread! keep 'em coming!
Aeolus
Since 20 Apr 2010
354 Posts
Gold Beach, OR
OR-SoCo-Aficionado
Wed Dec 18, 13 11:36 pm
...the gear freak bus just pulled in love it!
Ahh the nuances of slick but sticky! Some great concepts to experiment with. I'm down with a club with a lot of beer.
Thanks y'all for spending the time to load some info up.. I had come across the engine deal before, but I had not been back to see their new spreader bar addition. Cool.
chrissmack wrote:
years ago some guy made this (there was a video, but i cannot find it)....it was an extruded metal piece......
chrissmack stirred my memory....I vaguely remember some crazy sh,.)$t a few years ago....yep....nw kite delivers....crazy homemade stuff
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum You can attach files in this forum You can download files in this forum