Forum | Classifieds | Lost & Found | CGKA | Industry | Sensors | Forecast | Spots | Seattle | Decals | RSS | Facebook Events | Photos | Search | Register | Profile | Log in to check your messages | Log in  First it was coal trains now it is coal barges Page 1, 2  Next          Northwest Kiteboarding -> Gorge / Portland / Oregon Coast previous topic :: next topic   Author Message moondog Since 15 Aug 2007 706 Posts white salmon Addicted CGKA Member Fri Jun 07, 13 8:36 am    First it was coal trains now it is coal barges Amber energy is proposing to ship coal down the river in barges. There would be 12 additional barges each week. These will likely be triple wide barges. This is extremely combustible coal. In fact, the trains say it is too combustible to cover. Amber energy plans to cover them. If they catch on fire all you can do is let it burn. There is no way to put it out. So, the coal is shipped down the river to a port in Washington where it is unloaded and put on ships to Asia where it blows right back on us. I could keep going on with the problems but I think you are already aware of them. Amber is applying for permits now. There will be two hearing in July, one in Boardman and the other in Portland. We will be renting vans to take people there. We have been able to turn back 3 of the 6 proposals already but it is no time to quit. It has only been by showing a great outcry of public opinion against these ports that we have been able to defeat them. http://www.gorgefriends.org/section.php?id=79#impacts is probably the best in terms of describing overall impacts and it includes recreation impacts, links, and the latest info on Ambre project. The state is holding hearings on July 8 regarding Ambre. We are trying to get people to go to the hearing. At the very least we need people to email comments _________________ moondog SalmonSlayer Since 27 Nov 2005 648 Posts Addicted CGKA Member Fri Jun 07, 13 11:13 am     Stop all of it. Raise gas to $10 a gallon. Raise the cost of all energy sources. People will stop using as much energy. What could go wrong? MikeZ Since 17 Jul 2012 207 Posts Beaverton / Seaside / Govy Stoked Fri Jun 07, 13 11:40 am     SalmonSlayer wrote: Stop all of it. Raise gas to $10 a gallon. Raise the cost of all energy sources. People will stop using as much energy. What could go wrong? I know I'll regret wading into this, but how would not shipping coal to Asia raise our energy costs in the US? SalmonSlayer Since 27 Nov 2005 648 Posts Addicted CGKA Member Fri Jun 07, 13 5:27 pm     Econ 101 Supply and demand. Reduce supply and the price goes up. You don't suppose that those opposed to coal trains would not also be opposed to burning the coal in the USA, do you? Not to worry though, it will most significantly affect those with less means to afford the basics. More expensive kite gear from increased manufacturing costs will only affect those that can barely afford kiting now. More room for the rest of us. Less business for the local shops. Less, less, less. What could go wrong? Nak Since 19 May 2005 4312 Posts Camas Site Lackey CGKA Member Fri Jun 07, 13 6:13 pm     SalmonSlayer wrote: Econ 101 Supply and demand. Reduce supply and the price goes up. You don't suppose that those opposed to coal trains would not also be opposed to burning the coal in the USA, do you? No offense, but that's not Econ 101, that's talk show economics. You can't rationally argue that. Reduced demand equals lower prices. Your implication that we must sell coal to China or we will ban coal here has no cause and effect relationship. There's a multitude of reasons why that is so here, but it's really not a kite related issue. This is actually an issue that liberals and conservatives, environmentalists and industrialists all get a chance to be Americans. Well except for the talk show dimwits, I mean hosts... Rather than sell coal to China where it will be burned with no regards to the environment, why not study burning coal cleanly here? Rather than pay the inefficiencies and the environmental cost of shipping coal un-covered, why not burn it near it's source? Once it's dispersed in the atmosphere, it really doesn't matter where on the planet the coal is burned; the effects are the same. Coal burned cleanly here is far, far better than coal burned in China, on so many different levels. The coal is going to be burned. That's a political reality that must be dealt with. If we build a clean plant here near the source of the coal, our energy costs will diminish which will help all aspects of our economy. If it's burned near the source, then you don't have to deal with showering the Gorge and other areas with coal dust. If it's burned here we can demand that it be burned cleanly. (Once we get the demented radio talk show hosts out of the picture.) If it's burned dirty in China, our energy cost goes up, our national security costs go up, our environment gets dirtier. To paraphrase: "More expensive energy costs will only affect those that can barely afford kiting now. More room for the rest of us. Less business for the local shops. Less, less, less. What could go wrong?" Of course that's not really true, higher energy costs will end up affecting us all. But hey, at least we get to pollute the Gorge while we're raising our own energy costs! Mark Since 20 Jun 2005 3678 Posts I need my fix because I'm a Naishaholic Fri Jun 07, 13 8:02 pm     Nak wrote: No offense, but that's not Econ 101, that's talk show economics. You can't rationally argue that. Reduced demand equals lower prices. Your implication that we must sell coal to China or we will ban coal here has no cause and effect relationship. There's a multitude of reasons why that is so here, but it's really not a kite related issue. This is actually an issue that liberals and conservatives, environmentalists and industrialists all get a chance to be Americans. Well except for the talk show dimwits, I mean hosts... Rather than sell coal to China where it will be burned with no regards to the environment, why not study burning coal cleanly here? Rather than pay the inefficiencies and the environmental cost of shipping coal un-covered, why not burn it near it's source? Once it's dispersed in the atmosphere, it really doesn't matter where on the planet the coal is burned; the effects are the same. Coal burned cleanly here is far, far better than coal burned in China, on so many different levels. The coal is going to be burned. That's a political reality that must be dealt with. If we build a clean plant here near the source of the coal, our energy costs will diminish which will help all aspects of our economy. If it's burned near the source, then you don't have to deal with showering the Gorge and other areas with coal dust. If it's burned here we can demand that it be burned cleanly. (Once we get the demented radio talk show hosts out of the picture.) If it's burned dirty in China, our energy cost goes up, our national security costs go up, our environment gets dirtier. To paraphrase: "More expensive energy costs will only affect those that can barely afford kiting now. More room for the rest of us. Less business for the local shops. Less, less, less. What could go wrong?" Of course that's not really true, higher energy costs will end up affecting us all. But hey, at least we get to pollute the Gorge while we're raising our own energy costs! _________________ Cleverly disguised as an adult... www.naishkites.com moondog Since 15 Aug 2007 706 Posts white salmon Addicted CGKA Member Fri Jun 07, 13 8:58 pm     We digress. If you are against coal being shipped through our pristine paradise via barge or train get on the website I provided on the initial post and stop the madness! _________________ moondog HRnico Since 22 Mar 2008 262 Posts Da Hood Obsessed Sat Jun 08, 13 4:32 am     Reopen Boardman! _________________ CGKA Member SalmonSlayer Since 27 Nov 2005 648 Posts Addicted CGKA Member Sat Jun 08, 13 7:22 am     [quote="Nak"] SalmonSlayer wrote: No offense, but that's not Econ 101, that's talk show economics. .... Well except for the talk show dimwits, I mean hosts... You are funny Nak. You start out with "no offense" and then imply my source of information or my argument is the same as "demented/dimwit" talk radio hosts. Really? You thought that would not be offensive? LOL Nak wrote: ....You can't rationally argue that. Reduced demand equals lower prices. Your implication that we must sell coal to China or we will ban coal here has no cause and effect relationship. I can't argue "that"? I am not sure what "that" you are referencing. I said that reduced energy supply raises prices (not econ 101?). Where did I imply we must sell coal to China or we will ban coal here? What I implied is the same people that are opposed to coal barges will also be opposed to burning coal in the USA. It was a gross generalization which obviously does not include you. However, there is a significant group of people that are oppose selling to China and opposed to burning coal cleanly near the source(. What if the source of coal was near Hood River? Do you really think that a clean coal burning plant would be accepted by the NIMBY's? That was the general point I was trying to make. Of course any change in energy prices will affect all of us. We dont live in a static environment where increases in dollars spent on fuel dont take away from the dollars spend on other goods such as kites . I could have made that point better. However, reducing supply will raise prices and who does it affect the most if fuel prices double? The person that makes $130k a year or the person that makes 30K a year.? Apparently the Sierra Club onto the coal train issue. Remember, article referenced in the OP was a covered barges and not a train "showering" coal dust in the gorge. Apparently covered transport is wrong too. Note the source is not talk radio http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/03/science/earth/oregon-groups-give-notice-of-suit-over-coal-dust.html?_r=0 Got to love the last 2 sentences LOL "But there has been little research on the issue, they added, and the environmental impact is unclear. The groups declined to release their own studies of the contaminants. " Check out this report from Jan 2012. See page 16 China Dwarfs the US in coal power. We are selling coal to china instead of burning it at the source. I wonder why. http://www.netl.doe.gov/coal/refshelf/ncp.pdf registered Since 12 Jul 2005 1319 Posts tsunami Sandbagger Sat Jun 08, 13 7:51 am     facts and figures can make sense of arguments of this both ways just ask a lawyer. What will make the ultimate choice is deep pockets. Hurting our environment is part of living. Protecting it is part of living to. Somewhere in the middle is where we try to live with the help of those with deep pockets. If we stop lining the pockets ,the actions will lose the luster moving operations to a inviting site. Nak Since 19 May 2005 4312 Posts Camas Site Lackey CGKA Member Sat Jun 08, 13 8:25 am     [quote="SalmonSlayer"] Nak wrote: SalmonSlayer wrote: No offense, but that's not Econ 101, that's talk show economics. .... Well except for the talk show dimwits, I mean hosts... You are funny Nak. You start out with "no offense" and then imply my source of information or my argument is the same as "demented/dimwit" talk radio hosts. Really? You thought that would not be offensive? LOL No, I knew it could be taken as offensive, which is why I prefaced it with "No offense". My intent was not to offend or demean you. My intent was to show that particular argument (the argument, not you) was not rational and typical of talk show radio. SalmonSlayer wrote: I can't argue "that"? I am not sure what "that" you are referencing. I said that reduced energy supply raises prices (not econ 101?). Where did I imply we must sell coal to China or we will ban coal here? I'm referencing you as shown in the quote I used: [quote="Nak"] SalmonSlayer wrote: Econ 101 Supply and demand. Reduce supply and the price goes up. You don't suppose that those opposed to coal trains would not also be opposed to burning the coal in the USA, do you? You imply that banning these coal sales to china would reduce supply, simply because some of those that support the ban might later oppose coal burning here. I'm pointing out that argument is not rational. First, selling coal to China increases demand, which will increase energy cost here. Not selling coal to China reduces demand which reduces energy cost here. Also, you can't demonstrate a cause and effect relationship between banning coal sales to China and increased success of several groups efforts to limit coal burning here. Those groups will oppose coal burning here regardless of whether or not coal is sold to China. In fact, you could very easily make a rational argument that success in banning sales to China would in fact lead to those groups failure to limit coal burning here! How? Simple: There is significant political pressure, because of the money involved, to continue to mine coal. We have the coal, it is going to be used. That is a political reality whether or not you like it. The less of it exported, the more it will be burned here. Decreased demand from exports will drive the price down which will encourage use here. With a lower price, it will be more economically feasible to develop and use clean burning technology. SalmonSlayer wrote: What I implied is the same people that are opposed to coal barges will also be opposed to burning coal in the USA. It was a gross generalization which obviously does not include you. However, there is a significant group of people that are oppose selling to China and opposed to burning coal cleanly near the source So what? Those people are fellow Americans who are just trying to do what they feel is right for our country. Just because you disagree with them on some issues doesn't mean you should fight them on every issue. Where you find common cause with them, you should join with them as a fellow American. I'm sick of the polarized politics in this country. This country was made great because people with different viewpoints worked together to make it great. This country was not built by liberals, nor was it built by conservatives. It was built by Americans. SalmonSlayer wrote: What if the source of coal was near Hood River? Do you really think that a clean coal burning plant would be accepted by the NIMBY's? That was the general point I was trying to make. Again, So what? If worms had machine guns, birds wouldn't screw with them. The source of coal isn't near the Gorge, so why should we care what people would think or do if it was? The point I'm trying to make is that we ALL should be against these shipments. Conservatives and liberals alike. We should join forces to stop this insanity. It doesn't matter if you're against it because it will damage the US economy or if you're against it because it will damage the environment. There's a history of Americans fighting together as Americans. That's what made this country great. "When we're together, we're the best." This sale is bad for America. It's bad environmentally, it's bad economically, it's bad from a national security perspective. It's bad from an overall trade perspective, for us. It's only good for a very select, very rich, few. So everybody, Rednecks and Hippies, Democrats and Republicans, add your voice to the fight. There's something for everyone to hate about this sale. http://www.gorgefriends.org/section.php?id=79#impacts quenyaistar Since 21 Oct 2011 416 Posts Cougar, WA Obsessed Sat Jun 08, 13 1:50 pm     Nak is right burn it here cleanly close to where it is unearthed or do not burn it at all, it is really that simple.....therefore most politicians will try to do the opposite _________________ 1 OF 1 dangler Since 26 Feb 2006 1781 Posts WINDY SPOTS XTreme Poster Sat Jun 08, 13 6:43 pm    its not political its big money, bigger egos, and biggest douchebag billionaires, and its all greed. _________________ Kite Repair? AND WINGS Call me.(509) six 37-four five 29 SalmonSlayer Since 27 Nov 2005 648 Posts Addicted CGKA Member Sun Jun 09, 13 3:59 am     Nak wrote: Rant rant rant, pat self on back Nak, You seem to have read what you wanted onto my statements and like to hear yourself rant off on a tangent. Try not putting words into my mouth. My comments were based on simple supply and demand principles that hold true no matter how much you may try to dance around it. Whenever you interfere with the flow of commerce, you create friction that will raise prices. In the case of energy, when you create friction in the flow of energy, it raises the cost of acquisition, which increases the cost goods, which reduces purchases, mostly hurts thos of lesser financial means.... Anything done to reduce or flow of energy has an effect on prices. Need a more extreme example to grasp cause and effect? Quadruple the cost of fuel and see what it does to our economy. This is reality. It has nothing to to with political leanings, talk radio... Econ 101 concepts should be taught in high school and passing the class should be a requirement to vote in my opinion. BTW.. part of my employment duties entails daily market research to forecast movements in mortgage backed securities. Based on this research I used to send out daily recommendations to a distribution list of about 1500 recipients. Was I right all of the time? No. Was I right most of the time,? Yes. I want to thank you for pointing out the error of my ways. Until now I thought talk radio was the best source for my market info. I will be PM'ing you for market advice in the future. Regulations have made the timeliness of my forecasts less relevant so I only provide my analysis when asked. These regulations were made by some of those people you think are trying to make the best decision for the country (fairly naive of you in my opinion) and ultimately increased costs the end mortgage consumer. Most people make decisions based on how it affect them personally because they have limited big picture knowledge or interest. Go ahead and have the last rant. It will be entertaining to see what you read into this post so you can rant and pat yourself on the back. No offense of course. MikeZ Since 17 Jul 2012 207 Posts Beaverton / Seaside / Govy Stoked Sun Jun 09, 13 8:14 am     SalmonSlayer wrote: Econ 101 concepts should be taught in high school and passing the class should be a requirement to vote in my opinion. Hmmm, your grasp of constitutional law appears to be as shaky as your grasp of economics. Exporting coal to Asia does nothing to supply us with energy here in North America - there are no transmission lines bridging the Pacific. But increased coal exports would increase the demand for coal, and thus tend to increase the price. That, if anything, would tend to increase (not decrease) our energy costs. In reality, I expect it would have minimal impact on our near-term energy costs, as the US is currently moving pretty strongly away from coal, and towards natural gas. And that could form the basis of an altogether separate off-topic discussion... Nak Since 19 May 2005 4312 Posts Camas Site Lackey CGKA Member Sun Jun 09, 13 8:56 pm     SalmonSlayer wrote: Go ahead and have the last rant. It will be entertaining to see what you read into this post so you can rant and pat yourself on the back. No offense of course. None taken. As much as I'd like to continue to entertain SS, I think this discussion has run it's course. No one is going to change his or like minded individuals feelings on the subject. I hope that if you're reading this you'll consider what information has been put forth on each side and make the effort to get involved. You CAN have an impact on this issue. http://www.gorgefriends.org/section.php?id=79#impacts Hein Since 08 Mar 2005 1314 Posts Possessed Thu Jun 27, 13 6:46 am     Coal hating Obama voters can go ahead and punch themselves again. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323689204578569940685984374.html        Northwest Kiteboarding -> Gorge / Portland / Oregon Coast All times are GMT - 8 Hours Page 1, 2  Next Page 1 of 2   Jump to: Select a forum Northwest Kiteboarding Discussion Forum----------------Gorge / Portland / Oregon CoastFor SaleLost & FoundIndustry SoapboxCGKA  You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum You can attach files in this forum You can download files in this forum