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Hood River Cable Park - CGKA Needs Your Support
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Heatherhoodriver

Since 12 Mar 2012
5 Posts

Kook



PostWed Mar 14, 12 1:25 pm     Reply with quote

Quote:
Much of what you are proposing has already been a part of discussions for the past year at meetings with the Port, Corp of Engineers, City, and at all other public meetings and hearings. I would hope that you understand this in that much of the current plans and designwork are already permitted and in place, henceforth legally have very little opportunity to meet the plans that you have set forth at this late of a date.
There is definitely an open desire from the Naito's to do whatever they can to work within the interest of the public users, but they, the Port, the Corp of Engineers and the City do need to stick to some sort of time frame for making this happen in the right way.
[quote]

Pepi--

I think you are incorrect on the timing here. As far as I know, nothing has been permitted yet. Lots of applications have been submitted but not a single one has been approved by any agency --that's what we are in the middle of now. So its the perfect time to weigh in on proposals. Yes, plans have been drawn--but they are just that: "Plans" representing what the developer would like to do. Plans get changed all the time as part of the permitting process.

Also, to flesh out a comment of your's earlier about difficulties getting a path from the Naito property to the event site along Lot 1. The City did a Plat Partition of Port property late last year and conditioned it with a requirement to build a path along the water on Lot 1. Talking to the Port Director, he said that the Port is legally obligated to build that path. But really that's just the starting point--the job for you, me and other interested folks in the community is to make sure it is really good and part of a comprehensive plan for Lot 1.

I have been thinking and working on this since December--so yes, I'm a little late to the party. Wish I had gotten involved earlier but playing fast catch up now.

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NaitoDevelopment

Since 25 Apr 2011
23 Posts
Portland
 



PostThu Mar 15, 12 8:54 am     Reply with quote

March 14, 2012

Heather Staten
Hood River, OR Via Email heatherstaten@gorge.net

Dear Heather:

I have enjoyed our several conversations about our Nichols Landing project and the opportunity to show you the Willamette River Greenway designs that we built at McCormick Pier and Albers Mill. I received your comments and video on our project and wanted to take this opportunity to address your concerns. Your issue seems to be that our commercial building will block the view of the boat basin from the Pedestrian Assess Way (PAW).

You imply we are motivated to find “what is the cheapest and easiest way to meet the City’s requirements for a Pedestrian Access Way?” I can tell you that this could not be farther from the truth. We have devoted a great deal of thought to finding the best way to provide the “vital middle link in the chain connecting the east side of the waterfront (the pedestrian bridge, the Marina, and access to downtown) and the west side (the proposed top-of-bank path along the west side of the boat basin, the Event site and Waterfront Park).”

As you know, the current PAW runs behind the gas station and along the ODOT access road next to the freeway. The “cheapest and easiest way to satisfy the City’s requirements for a PAW” would have been simply to build a sidewalk on the existing PAW alignment following the ODOT access road. We could then have built the hotel and commercial buildings at the edge of the US Army Corps of Engineers (USACE) flowage easement with parking between the buildings and the access road and PAW. That is the “cheapest and easiest way” which would have met the City’s PAW requirements, but no one would have been happy with the solution.

Instead, we have been working with ODOT, the Port of Hood River, the City of Hood River and the USACE for over a year to develop a better alternative. We began with the concept of relocating the access road and PAW from against the freeway to the edge of the flowage easement. In simple terms, this moved the people closer to the water and the cars next to the freeway. We are bearing 100% of the cost of building the new access road as well as leasing a portion of the old access road from the Port and ODOT to use for parking.

We are meeting the City’s requirements for the PAW (see Exhibit A) with the construction of the sidewalk on the water side of the access road. By the way, nowhere in the requirements are we prevented from constructing the commercial building to the north (water side) of the PAW. Beyond meeting the letter of the law, we believe we are meeting the spirit of the PAW requirement by wrapping the building with a deck which allows year-round public access that will not be flooded and an unimpeded view of the boat basin from the edge of the water.

Your video mischaracterizes the design by representing that the view from the PAW will be blocked for the length of the building.



As the arrows show, the views from the decks around the building are unimpeded, protected from the freeway and are significantly closer to the water.

Your opinion appears to be that these decks wrapping around the building should not considered part of the PAW.

“But in real life, they won’t function like that, the impression will be of walking onto private property. Café seating is planned for the restaurant and coffee shop. Most pedestrians will feel uncomfortable picking their way through a forest of tables in order to navigate around the building.”

To the contrary we believe that the public will feel welcome to walk around the building especially on summer days. The glass storefront and roll up doors opening out onto the deck are an obvious invitation to window shop or stroll around the building. One has only to walk down NW 23rd and 21st or in the Pearl District in Portland to see many examples of sidewalk cafes (23 Hoyt, Papa Haydn, Jo Bar, Café Mingo, Piazza Italia, Paragon and others) where pedestrians share the sidewalk with café patrons on sidewalks narrower than our restaurant’s seating area and deck. Rather than feeling “uncomfortable picking their way through a forest of tables” the retail shops and sidewalk cafes on 23rd Avenue contribute to the pedestrian experience and the vibrancy of the neighborhood.

I believe Hood River’s waterfront will be enhanced by providing a variety of experiences along the PAW. During the winter, people will appreciate having at least one place between the hook and the Best Western where one can escape the rain and enjoy a cup of coffee, hot chocolate or perhaps lunch. During the summer, we hope the deck around the building will provide an active, vibrant and fun place to shop, dine or just people watch very much as the sidewalks on NW 23rd are used. And while I suspect the roller skaters and cyclists will prefer to use the access road and sidewalk on the south side of the building, I'm sure your big wet dog will be welcome.

On this issue, we have a difference of opinion and simply have to respectfully agree to disagree.

Sincerely,



Bob Naito

Enclosure: PAW Condition of Nichols Landing Zone Change to C-2







EXHIBIT A

PAW CONDITION OF NICHOLS LANDING ZONE CHANGE TO C-2

Provide for an interconnection to the proposed pedestrian access way (PAW) that will connect the waterfront to the downtown. Pedestrian Access Ways (PAW) shall be constructed to the following standards:

a. For PAWs that are not sidewalks on a street, the PAW shall be no less than twelve (12) feet wide where feasible and constructed of an all-weather material.

b. For Paws that are sidewalks, the sidewalks shall be constructed in accordance with this section.

c. Night lighting shall be provided along the PAW.

d. The PAW shall be ADA accessible.

e. The PAW may be cantilevered over water as an alternative to land-based walkways.

f. Offset seating shall be provided at periodic intervals. Seating areas may be located along and within the PAW and the Columbia River Waterfront Corridor.

g. The PAW shall be landscaped. This should include a variety of trees, shrubbery, and groundcover at least eight feet wide on the landward side where possible.

h. Safety considerations for PAW users shall be a principal consideration in the siting and configuration of the PAW.

i. For PAWs that are required as part of a site plan a condition of approval shall be included identifying where the PAW will be located and who will be responsible for the construction, maintenance, and landscaping, and stating that the portion of the PAW to be constructed shall be completed prior to issuance of a certificate of occupancy.

j. Paws shall be public or private. If the PAW is private, a recorded easement in a form approved by the City must be provided, and the PAW must be open to the public and shall not be restricted to public access except as allowed by City rules and regulations pursuant to Section 17.21.100 (5) (I). Public Paws shall be dedicated to the public in the same manner as public streets.

_________________
Will Naito - Naito Development
www.naitodevelopment.com

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Heatherhoodriver

Since 12 Mar 2012
5 Posts

Kook



PostFri Mar 16, 12 6:49 am     Reply with quote

Quote:
As you know, the current PAW runs behind the gas station and along the ODOT access road next to the freeway. The “cheapest and easiest way to satisfy the City’s requirements for a PAW” would have been simply to build a sidewalk on the existing PAW alignment following the ODOT access road.


To correct an inaccuracy in Bob Naito's post: there is NOT currently a Pedestrian Access Way (or PAW--just a zoning term for a really nice sidewalk or path) on Nichol's Boat Basin at all, there is just ODOT's vehicular access road to the Spit. As part of their development, the city requires the Naito's to build a PAW.

The argument isn't about whether there are worse places for a path (yes, right by the freeway is obviously worse) but whether there are better. There are alternatives worth exploring, like creating a secondary path by the water so walkers can choose to take the scenic route if they want.

You can decide for yourself. Bob gives a good description of his viewpoint in his post here.

For my reasons for wanting a waterfront path that runs along the water check out this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWd9dEF1V-0 or my comments

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1QDVBOAFedYyJABkiqEwNg7WqN5cDcyNERdRJ9lx3Ye0/edit

Better yet, visit the site yourself and walk around. Walk along the water, then walk where the proposed path would be (you'll have to climb on the dirt piles if you want to be exactly accurate).

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NaitoDevelopment

Since 25 Apr 2011
23 Posts
Portland
 



PostFri Mar 16, 12 8:22 am     Reply with quote

Heatherhoodriver wrote:

Better yet, visit the site yourself and walk around. Walk along the water, then walk where the proposed path would be (you'll have to climb on the dirt piles if you want to be exactly accurate).


Heather, unfortunately you are mistaken about the location of the proposed sidewalk on the property, both in your YouTube video and in your comment above. The proposed sidewalk is not at or around the fill material on the site. The fill material (and location of the freeway shot in your video) is nearly 100ft. closer to the freeway than the proposed location in the site plan. The invented, arbitrary location you're claiming is very misleading.

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scooter

Since 23 Apr 2005
99 Posts
hood River
 



PostFri Mar 16, 12 1:40 pm    Those of us who oppose this have a voice as well. Reply with quote

I oppose this plan because it uses public water space to profit only a few. The public should have use of all public water space and the basin should not be developed for a few people. This would set a very dangerous precedent for private profiting on public waters.

I'm not here to troll or to get involved in a discussion but rather to let you know that there are some of us who think this is a very bad idea. The environment on this forum has not been friendly to those of us who disagree with this plan and I felt the need speak my peace.

Also, here is a letter to the Hood River News and the City planning commission from a friend who is a water rights attorney here in Oregon.

She wanted me to post it for you to read.

Hood River Cable Park
To the editor:
The Hood River planning commission will meet Monday night to discuss the installation of a kitesurfing 'cable park' in Nichols Basin. The park will be a commercial enterprise and interfere with wildlife in the basin and other recreational uses.
The planning commission's report on the matter states no legal authority under which a private park may be built in water that is part of the Columbia River. In fact, no legal authority exists.
Under the Public Trust Doctrine, a hallmark of water law that dates back to the time of ancient Rome, the state governments hold public navigable waters in trust for all citizens, not just one private group or owner. The Magna Carta cited this doctrine and outlawed fishermen's weirs that were blocking the free naviagation of rivers. The U.S. Supreme Court, in Illinois Central Railroad adopted it into law and overturned the city of Chicago's decision to grant part of its harbor to the private use of the railroads.
The Public Trust Doctrine is a pillar of our democracy and our country's legacy of allowing unrestricted access to our bountiful natural water resources. Our country has seen a move away from social and economic equality and the private ownership society has left many of us behind. Yet the Supreme Court has decided that the rivers and riverbeds still belong to all citizens equally, without extending privileges to one group over another. Unfettered public access to the rivers for all recreational uses is one part of our heritage as Americans we must keep sacred. Allowing private owners to develop public waters for private benefit is both illegal and contrary to the ideals of our democracy.
Sincerely,
Liz Hallock, J.D., Esq.

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Blazeheliski

Since 30 Mar 2011
659 Posts
Mosier
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PostFri Mar 16, 12 6:10 pm    Re: Those of us who oppose this have a voice as well. Reply with quote

scooter wrote:
The Public Trust Doctrine is a pillar of our democracy and our country's legacy of allowing unrestricted access to our bountiful natural water resources. Our country has seen a move away from social and economic equality and the private ownership society has left many of us behind. Yet the Supreme Court has decided that the rivers and riverbeds still belong to all citizens equally, without extending privileges to one group over another. Unfettered public access to the rivers for all recreational uses is one part of our heritage as Americans we must keep sacred. Allowing private owners to develop public waters for private benefit is both illegal and contrary to the ideals of our democracy.
Sincerely,
Liz Hallock, J.D., Esq.


Really??? She is saying that restricting access to any part of any waterway is illegal? So she is saying that all the private marinas along the Columbia like Hayden Bay where you have to be a member to get through the gate to access the water is illegal? She is saying that I could take my jetski to the docks at the Port of Portland or any naval base and ride circles around their ships? She is saying that the general public can go down to the Native American fishing platforms along the Columbia and set up their barbeques and have diving competitons off their docks?

For being a water rights attorney, I would think she could actually see what the reality is in this country? I like to kite at Jones Beach. There is a big, beautiful mansion right on the water with their own beach on the Washington side right across from the Oregon side launch. So according to her, I should be able to land on their beach and hang out and throw a party if I want because they are an "evil" private owner that developed their own beach for their own benefit?

Wow

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Inept_Fun

Since 14 Apr 2005
1417 Posts
Hood River
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PostFri Mar 16, 12 8:44 pm     Reply with quote

How is a man made boat basin considered a natural part of the columbia anyways. Oh yeah and a kitesurfing cable park? It might at least help your cause if you sounded like you knew what you were talking about before writing such a letter. Also the land is not public, it is privately owned, so I don't really think your argument holds up there.
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scooter

Since 23 Apr 2005
99 Posts
hood River
 



PostFri Mar 16, 12 9:16 pm     Reply with quote

Inept_Fun wrote:
How is a man made boat basin considered a natural part of the columbia anyways..


That is the real issue. The point of my friends letter was not to question the rights of the property order to develop the land but rather who has the authority to develope public water ways. Rivers are protected in this country. If you are the owner of river front property you do not have the right to keep me from boating past it. River water and the land under the water is public and cannot be used or limited to a certain group of people. There are many legal examples of this and there are organizations who's soul purpose is to protect those right.

This is my understanding of the law according to her letter. However,if the powers that be( the government or ultimately the court system when a lawsuit is brought up) decide that the basin is a public water way and part of the Columbia I don't see this ever happening. If they don't see it that way I'm sure it will move forward.

I was researching tonight all the cable parks listed in the US and not one of them seemed to be in public water ways or rivers. They all seemed to be in man made lakes or ponds on private land. That is very telling to me.

I think the park would be cool but not on a public water way.

I am not alone in my thinking. For me this is not about the environmental impact but rather an issue of pubic water ways and the rights of all citizens to be able to use them.

Anyhow, I hope this clears up our perspective on this issue.
Good luck
Very Happy Derek

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Blazeheliski

Since 30 Mar 2011
659 Posts
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PostSat Mar 17, 12 7:07 am     Reply with quote

What about gated private boat marinas then? Private owners have developed the land next to the water so that only members can enter from the shore. They have also placed tall pilings into the ground under the "public" waterway to anchor the docks that only members can access on the public waterway. Aren't the pilings placed in ground in the public space just like a cable tower would be?

Before the private marina owners placed these pilings into the ground for their own self interest, you could pilot your boat straight through that section of waterway. Now you have to go around it because you are not a member. If cable towers are placed into the ground of the public waterway, then you will have to go around that section of waterway also. (even though most people never even went into that part of the water anyway because it is a dead end. And it turns into a pond when the water gets low enough)

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Inept_Fun

Since 14 Apr 2005
1417 Posts
Hood River
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PostSat Mar 17, 12 10:32 am     Reply with quote

scooter wrote:
Inept_Fun wrote:
How is a man made boat basin considered a natural part of the columbia anyways..


That is the real issue. The point of my friends letter was not to question the rights of the property order to develop the land but rather who has the authority to develope public water ways. Rivers are protected in this country. If you are the owner of river front property you do not have the right to keep me from boating past it. River water and the land under the water is public and cannot be used or limited to a certain group of people. There are many legal examples of this and there are organizations who's soul purpose is to protect those right.

This is my understanding of the law according to her letter. However,if the powers that be( the government or ultimately the court system when a lawsuit is brought up) decide that the basin is a public water way and part of the Columbia I don't see this ever happening. If they don't see it that way I'm sure it will move forward.

I was researching tonight all the cable parks listed in the US and not one of them seemed to be in public water ways or rivers. They all seemed to be in man made lakes or ponds on private land. That is very telling to me.

I think the park would be cool but not on a public water way.

I am not alone in my thinking. For me this is not about the environmental impact but rather an issue of pubic water ways and the rights of all citizens to be able to use them.

Anyhow, I hope this clears up our perspective on this issue.
Good luck
Very Happy Derek


You do realize that in summer its almost impossible to even get a jetski into this supposedly navigable waterway that ends in a dead end. Furthermore the basin was privately owned and created in the past for exclusive use of repairing barges. I still dont see how your argument makes any sense what so ever.

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scooter

Since 23 Apr 2005
99 Posts
hood River
 



PostSun Mar 18, 12 4:11 pm     Reply with quote

Quote:
You do realize that in summer its almost impossible to even get a jetski into this supposedly navigable waterway that ends in a dead end. Furthermore the basin was privately owned and created in the past for exclusive use of repairing barges. I still dont see how your argument makes any sense what so ever.


"almost" impossible to..." but not impossible to navigate in a boat. Therefore it is navigable and qualifies as part of the public water way. Can I build a log ride in front of the sand bar and exclude kiteboarders? No, because it is part of the public water way of a navigable river.

The water is not owned by anyone. It is part of the river and held in the public trust.

http://www.oregon.gov/DSL/NAV/yourrights.shtml

http://www.oregon.gov/DSL/NAV/navigwaterways.shtml

Here are a couple of links for ya.

As for docks and marinas, those are one of the few exceptions. A private land owner can build a dock but not block the path of the entire river or in this case the entire bay. The dock has to be "reasonable" in size and cannot block the river.

Private land owners in Colorado are trying to keep rafters and kayakers off a river that runs through his property. That is not legal and is being fought in the courts. We have the right to our public rivers and water ways and that right has been defended successfully in court for decades.

I'm cool with a cable park, just not on public water ways.

Derek

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boardrider

Since 05 Apr 2006
1034 Posts
Ventura, CA
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PostSun Mar 18, 12 6:39 pm     Reply with quote

Tried to stay out of the conversation as I'm not local . Probably still should, but I really love HR & hope your plans for the cable park go thru as you hope they do

I'm sure you guys supporting Naito development have spoken with these guys extensively & trust their intentions are honest.

Development of the waterfront is a tricky thing to get wind sport users to support.. It seems that a good strategy to get locals to support your development desires would be to promise them something they want.

Business is business, the #1 goal is to make money, and things happen. Estimates are off for the hotel & money runs out. Permits aren't issued. Maybe they just change their mind because the projected profits from the cable park just aren't there.

I'm just throwing it out there as 'devils advocate': Would you still have the same feelings about this development if no cable park was built ?

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forrest

Since 21 Jun 2005
4329 Posts
Hood River
Hick

CGKA Member


PostSun Mar 18, 12 6:48 pm     Reply with quote

Derek, you're stretching. The water is only navigable because no one has gone through the process of changing it. What's you're motivation anyway? Are you a SUP boarder or kayaker? Why not think of compromises that can work for everyone. Cable park riding will have a huge multitude more users (us, me, my daughter, my wife, my friends, my family from out of town) than anything that happens in there now. I would argue we have a right to enjoy the water using the cable park just as much as you have a right to navigate it. I would argue what you're saying is just a selfish attempt to keep it to yourself.

There is no "private" water where a cable park could go in the western united states, or it'd already be a done deal.

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scooter

Since 23 Apr 2005
99 Posts
hood River
 



PostSun Mar 18, 12 7:32 pm     Reply with quote

Forrest,

As you said it IS navigable and it will be very difficult to change that. There are many many legal precedents that have shown that.

What's my motivation? I am for the open access of public water ways and the basin as of now is part of a public waterway. I have not argued against its benefits. I have only argued that it is illegal to build one on a public water way. Pure and simple.

You said it yourself...if this was legal there would already be a cable park here in the west built on public water ways. There is reason I have yet to find a park built on a river or public water way in the US. The privatization of public water ways goes against some very stern and protected laws and legal rights that have been established generations ago for the protection of our rivers.

I am for the freedoms given us in the country to use our public waters and I am against the privatization of those waters for the use of only a few of the public members.

You do not have the legal right to use a public water way in such a way that excludes the general public and that is what a cable park will do. Also, where do you get your data on cable park usage numbers against the usage of fisherman, swimmers, kayakers, sup folk, canoeist, bird watchers, and the like. I reject your assertion that it will serve more people until I see some numbers.

This is not a simple issue but I have given a very simple and straight forward argument. This is a water use rights issue for me and nothing more.

Consider these definitions from the Oregon State Attorney's office.

our state water use rights...
http://www.oregon.gov/DSL/NAV/yourrights.shtml

Which rivers are state owned....see the Columbia on that list?
http://www.oregon.gov/DSL/NAV/navigwaterways.shtml


I truly hope we get a cable park in the area but only if it is put on private property.
Thanks for the dialogue.
Derek

Last edited by scooter on Sun Apr 08, 12 7:30 am; edited 1 time in total

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SalmonSlayer

Since 27 Nov 2005
648 Posts

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PostSun Mar 18, 12 8:52 pm     Reply with quote

Excerpt from http://dnr.alaska.gov/mlw/nav/nav_policy.htm#CRIT

NAVIGABILITY CRITERIA DISPUTES

Because of differing legal interpretations of court navigability decisions, several aspects of the criteria used by the state to determine navigability have been disputed by the federal government. As a direct result of these criteria disputes, many waterbodies considered navigable by the state have been determined non-navigable by the federal government.

The major criteria dispute has been over the type or purpose of the transportation required to establish navigability. The federal government has asserted that a waterway must be used, or capable of use, for transporting commerce to be considered navigable. Other, "noncommercial" transportation uses are not considered sufficient to establish navigability. In this context, the federal government has claimed that the only relevant "commercial" transportation is the distribution of goods for sale or barter, or the transportation for hire of people or things. The federal government has admitted that professionally guided transportation on Alaska's rivers, lakes and streams constitutes commerce, but nevertheless has argued that the waters are not being used as a navigable "highway" when recreation is involved, but rather more as an amusement park. The federal government has therefore claimed that waters used only for commercial recreation are legally nonnavigable even though they may be navigable in fact.

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scooter

Since 23 Apr 2005
99 Posts
hood River
 



PostSun Mar 18, 12 9:08 pm     Reply with quote

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Navigable+Waters

The vast body of federal regulation concerning navigable waters frequently gives rise to litigation, and in many cases the courts have the difficult job of determining whether particular bodies of water are navigable (and thus subject to the law or regulation in question). Lakes and rivers are generally considered navigable waters, but smaller bodies of water may also be navigable. Attempting to address years of problematic litigation, the U.S. Supreme Court in 1979 created four tests for determining what constitutes navigable waters. Established in Kaiser Aetna v. United States, 444 U.S. 164, 100 S. Ct. 383, 62 L. Ed. 2d 332, the tests ask whether the body of water (1) is subject to the ebb and flow of the tide, (2) connects with a continuous interstate waterway, (3) has navigable capacity, and (4) is actually navigable. Using these tests, courts have held that bodies of water much smaller than lakes and rivers also constitute navigable waters. Even shallow streams that are traversable only by canoe have met the test. bold added me

Commerce is only one of a few criteria by which the Federal government judges the navigability of a body of water. By the 1974 Supreme court ruling in 1979 the Basin would qualify as a navigable body of water.

Ultimately the Army corps of Engineers will rule on the "water" usage of the propose plan. Not the city or the port. It's not up the them. they do not have the authority to rule on it's legality.

If the Army corps of Engineer decide it is not navigable then then the courts will have to rule if someone files a lawsuit.

Again, I'm OK with this plan if it is in fact not on public waters.
bold added by me.

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SalmonSlayer

Since 27 Nov 2005
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PostSun Mar 18, 12 10:12 pm     Reply with quote

I suppose we can cut and paste all day long, but, nothing will be settled here.


While I appreciate consistency in the application of the law. I also hope that common sense will prevail in this unique situation.



Hmmmm
"Our country has seen a move away from social and economic equality and the private ownership society has left many of us behind."

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