Liquid Force Suing; Company, Ronix, Slingshot

Inept_Fun · Since 14 Apr 2005 1417 Posts Hood River XTreme Poster

Halfway down the page are the nuts & bolts....Looks like LF is suing everyone except Hyperlite for patent infringement on binding construction...?

http://stokemeter.com/2011/03/19/water-sports-turmoil/

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Article sent to Stokemeter.com from Anonymous Author

Tont Finn and Motion Watersports = The Demise of Wakeboarding Growth

I’ve recently read some disturbing news. I was searching the internet when I noticed that there was a lawsuit from Motion Water Sports (aka, the Archer Companies) against Company Wake for Patent Infringement (see http://www.rfcexpress.com/lawsuit.asp?id=67955). As further investigative work would reveal, Tony Finn filed the lawsuit claiming that Company Wake’s binding system was a patent infringement on their designs. Anyone that has seen the Company Wake Binding System can tell that there is no relation to the binding system Liquid Force or for that fact, any of the Archer companies use. What this lawsuit brought to light though was a pattern that we have seen in the past. One has only to look back to the early 2000′s where similar tactics were used against Hyperlite on a patent lawsuit as well, while under Paul and Herb O’Brien. They spent large amounts of time fighting the allegations, as well as close to a million dollars or so on legal fees only to have the case declared frivolous (A frivolous suit is one without any legal merit). The amount of money spent led to almost certain disaster for Hyperlite’s future until a so called “Knight in shining armor” came to the rescue. This so called knight was the Archer companies and this knight certainly had (and still has) ulterior motives. It seems as though these take over’s have a familiar pattern. First, Finn files these ridiculous lawsuits, and even if bogus the company needs to prove their innocence which leads to overbearing legal fees. Once so much money is used on legal fees, the company then becomes “vulnerable” and that is when the Archer companies gobble them up.

It is this dirty but effective tactic that Finn in particular uses and then convinces Motion Watersports to execute to “eliminate” the competition which has resulted in a mammoth and stifling “conglomerate”. As many industry experts will tell you (or not because of fear of retribution) it is also what is leading to the stagnation of the sport. How you might ask? Let’s delve a little deeper. Suppose that a rider wanted to ride for another company. The options really are few outside of the Archer companies. That means that if the rider wanted to go from let’s say Liquid Force to CWB. Since they are both Motion Watersports companies, they have little bargaining power and the move most likely wouldn’t happen. That’s why there was a breath of fresh air when corporations like Gator, Ronix, Slingshot, Company, and other independent board companies arrived on the scene. Things seem to be looking up for the industry. Well, guess what? Finn and the boys start to file the bogus lawsuits and these independents start to crumble. No big deal right? I wish that was the case. With only one game in town, innovation is stifled, worthy riders that could be sponsored are left in the dust because there can only be the chosen few in the limited amount of board companies. And perhaps the kicker is that there won’t be enough funds to go mainstream. Here is an example. Have you ever wondered why wakeboarding was dropped from the X-Games? Like you, I thought that it was because of the amount of work needed to set up the event. Looking into it further, it was discovered that “The Conglomerate” didn’t want to invest money to highlight it. Pure and simple, instead of growing the business, they wanted to pocket the money. It’s a scarcity mentality that this group has. Instead of realizing that investments in such an avenue as the X-Games would grow the industry and lead to much greater returns on investment and lead to much more money in the pocket, they take the money and run (by the way, the scarcity mentality is also why all the bogus lawsuits are being filed – think of it like a form of short man’s complex).

Okay, let’s get back to the lawsuits, is Company the only one? Nope. There are things coming up against Ronix and I have heard Slingshot as well. I’ve even heard that the Company crew was willing to cooperate with them on a royalty agreement as long as they could prove to them that they were in violation outside of court, but instead Finn and MotionWatersports went ahead and filed the lawsuit anyways. C’mon Tony and Bob, is this really how you want to build your legacy? Don’t you know that we know that your top design guys, film guys, and riders left because you were giving them the short end of the stick? Don’t you know that people know that Watson left you guys to be a Company rider, but then you lured him back with money and now have reneged on the money you promised stating that it was because of the economy? Don’t you know that many vendors are stocking your product out of “adverse selection” meaning that they only choose you because there is no other game in town? Don’t you know that retailers are sick and tired of your strong arm tactics in which you threaten not to give product if the retailer stocks your competitor’s products (i.e. live vests and clothing other than Liquid Force or Archer related product?). Don’t you know that industry leaders and a large number of the public know that you pull antics that are killing the business? You think I’m joking on that one? Well, here’s one of many similar examples. There is a major wakeboard and water sports retailer (there are actually a number of them that I know of). Because of the economy, the Archer Companies (most especially Tony Finn and LF) wouldn’t send this retailer any product, as they were behind in payments (which is somewhat understandable) which was especially damning because it would be the sales of the new product that would let the retailer pay off what they owed in the first place. This retailer was never late on payments before and would assuredly be able to pay off what they owed. Still, this retailer wouldn’t see any Hyperlite, Liquid Force, or other Archer product. However, Ronix and Company shipped them their product to sell. The Ronix and Company product was sold in such frequency that it led not only to paying back both Ronix and Company, but all of the Archer debts as well. Of course, now for 2011, the Archer Companies are coming back to this retailer for more orders. The fact is, with this scarcity mentality that Finn and the boys have, the so called elimination of rivals is ultimately leading to their own demise. But it doesn’t stop there. See, there are those vendors that you have said would be your exclusive dealers, and then they find out that you all have been double dipping. You are sending product to their competitors, the ones that you said you would not do so until a certain time was past. But hey, it’s not really the people that could grow your sport you care about; it’s about the money that goes in your pocket. Looks like your legacy is going to be similar to that of Enron and AIG. We (and I say we because there are many of us) feel sorry for you.

toddjb · Since 16 Oct 2007 271 Posts MD Obsessed

Matt E. · Since 22 May 2008 318 Posts West Coast Sales Rep Obsessed

Not suprised they are not sueing Hyperlite as I belive LF and Hyperlite are owned by the same parent company? Pretty interesting!

Inept_Fun · Since 14 Apr 2005 1417 Posts Hood River XTreme Poster

Update
http://www.sbckiteboard.com/more_news_article?news_id=1611

wakeup · Since 11 Sep 2005 328 Posts always Obsessed

sweet, we all CAN just get along!

Pepi · Wed Mar 23, 11 10:22 pm

Good times....
I worked for O'Brien back in the late 90's/2000's when the lawsuits were being thrown back and forth between the big 3 Wake companies.
Some stuff got so stupid it got down to riders supposedly not being allowed to use a competitors binding and then photos of said riders being used in lawsuits against sponsor companies.

Glad to hear that the boys at Slingy and Liquid have been able to work things out.

Seems like most stuff in the kiteworld has been working out well with the bigger companies working in the same direction to make our sport a better place to be.

Look forward to enjoying the use of those patent shared bindings and control bars this summer!

kitezilla · Since 22 Jun 2006 453 Posts gorge Obsessed

Pepi,

I would be interested in knowing specifically what components on "bars" are patented. I think that I have read that Naish has a patent on the "push-away" release. Does anyone have a patent on things like the "mini-fifth" line or "bungee line retainers" on the ends of the bar, or below the bar cleats, or 'hollow swivels', etc?

Also, will any patent holder really "share" their patent, without asking for royalties from the other user of the patent device?

Also, the only reference I saw in the above article relating to sharing anything possiby related to a bar, was the statement that said one company gave their riders "the short end of the stick". I guessed that they were talking about the new patent for the "short end" bar.

Ha, ha...just kidding about the "short end" thing,... but I really would like to know more about patents on components of bar control systems.

stringy · Since 23 Jun 2006 1726 Posts vancouver XTreme Poster

kitezilla, the SBC article lists the patent numbers so going over to the USPTO and doing a search by patent number goes directly to the patent.
it is absolutely amazing how vague both of those patents cover.

control bar description-
A control device for use with an aerodynamic wing including a bar having a fixed trim adjustment located between the bar and the user. The invention also includes a stopper that permits the user to quickly adjust the range of available dynamic trim. Preferably, the stopper does not lock until it engages the control bar, allowing the user to slide it quickly and easily to the desired location. The control systems of the invention provide a safety depower function when the end of the fixed trim is secured to a safety line.

binding description
A wakeboard binding assembly includes a binding base and an outersole. The binding base is adapted to attach both to the wakeboard, and an upper of the binding. The outersole is designed to surround the periphery of the binding base and cover the area of attachment between the binding base and the binding upper. The attachment of the upper to the binding base eliminates the need to use hardware and fasteners for attachment of the upper to the wakeboard.

now I'm wondering how those former employees who had the hands involved in the design patent are making out in royalties...LOL

as for the bar patent, I'm thinking there are many kite companies that fall under the SS patent. basically any company using a stopper ball and below the bar cleat system.

the binding patent, well I think every boot design falls under this patent.

pkh · Since 27 Feb 2005 6548 Posts Couve / Hood Site Lackey

I think its just the kite companies trading patents...

K2 · Since 30 Apr 2009 274 Posts Hood River, OR Obsessed

wbside · Since 09 Aug 2010 4 Posts Kook

Most patents explain the problem the invention solves. The control bar patent includes amusing leagalese for crashing on previous bar systems:

"if the user inadvertently depowers the kite too much while riding, the loss of force can cause the user to stop planing which is obviously undesirable. Likewise, too much depower in the middle of a jump can lead to a loss of lift and an undesirably abrupt descent. These effects are exacerbated when the user is using only one hand."

I have never seriously ate it, I've only experienced exacerbated, undersirable abrupt decents...

Inept_Fun · Since 14 Apr 2005 1417 Posts Hood River XTreme Poster

Its Slingshot Wake getting Liquid Wake binding, or more the molding that connects everything boot to base. and Liquid Kite getting Slingshot Kite Bar.

Bolt · Since 02 Nov 2008 111 Posts Floras Lake Stoked

liquid force "Slingshot, your using our binding idea"
slingshot "yeah, well your using our bar idea"
liquid force "ok, never mind"

Smile

TWIN-FIN · Since 24 May 2006 805 Posts Portland, OR Hot Monkey

Business up front
Party in back

melokitegirl · Since 28 Oct 2008 396 Posts Where the wind blows Obsessed

Ask Wiley where Tony got is first binding pattern from....and how he got it.

1surfer · Sun Mar 27, 11 3:07 pm **Patent law**

Just because a patent is issued does not guarantee that it is enforceable. Filling a method claim on an existing patent is a great way to go ..... Its also a totally stylish move, like a misty 7 .....