high wind combo

gabe · Since 16 May 2005 475 Posts Obsessed

1: kite

Following up on the 5m waroo thread from memorial day, I finally got to use mine for almost 4hrs yesterday at swell city/hatchery, in ideal conditions. Jerry was right that after you fly the 5, you don’t want to use the 7. And I already felt that way about the 7 vs 9. I have always liked small, fast, high wind kites so this isn’t that surprising and a lot of people even think 7s are twitchy, so your experience may vary.

But, this kite is unbelievably fun on those nuking days. I have never been in such high wind and huge water terrain, and been totally in control, safe, and with complete directional mobility to go anywhere I want, at any angle, and do whatever I want with the kite. It’s an unbelievably light and free feeling—unlike the survival edging you get from being overpowered when the only thing you can do is grind upwind. What’s really cool (with small kites and high wind in general) is how much control you have over the power—having so much power on tap so easily. You can be riding upwind totally mellow a bit depowered and then do 1 or 2 sines as fast as you can think about it and double or triple your power. This is what makes fast kites scary for beginners, but makes them so fun when you’re in control.

In this wind range where even a 7waroo (for my weight) is toward its top end and getting unstable, the 5 is just perfectly powered, with more power available on tap, and way more high end left. There were some gusts big enough that when caught on a reach I had to bear off hard, but I never had the kite fluttering or unstable or anything. You can crank upwind, do loops in half a second, bottom turns instantly, anything you want. I think shorter lines would be good, because if you sweep the kite low it can still generate a lot of pull for a long time. The kite is also super stable, which I think is the most important thing for swells. I was on some really fast, long swells, and I never had problems with the kite dropping (but you still need to do the right things and pay attention to it).

It has all the positive of small kites, with no negatives that I found. Sure, it’s fast, but not twitchy. Super stable at the edge of the window! If on the low end, it’s easy to oversheet by accident—when the correct thing to do is to sine instead. But that’s just operator error and can be avoided by trimming if you want. Kite of my dreams. The main benefit is that I really like everything about high wind conditions, and this allows you to be playful and aggressive in them, instead of all tensed up, on the edge of disaster. Also fun to dive bomb it toward the water, and then reverse in the last 10 ft. Kind of like a trainer.

I bet a lot of people will be getting this kite in the gorge. I wish I had a month earlier.

2: board

I rode Hein’s surfchip all weekend (the larger size, red one). This is that weird surfboard/modern directional/skim hybrid thing he made. He posted photos earlier-- http://www.impact3d.com/Hein136x44SurfChip.jpg and http://www.nwkite.com/forums/post-3237.html&highlight=#3237. I was surprised at first how thin, flexy, and light it was—kind of like a tray—way different than a skim or surfboard. The volume is so low it barely floats! Anyways, I won’t go into all the design issues, but I am thinking about them. It has inserts if you want straps. Since all my recent experience is on skimboards and a bizarrely fast surfboard, when I first used it I was disappointed that it wasn’t as fast, and had more drag, and required more constant kite power. But that’s just from my perspective, it probably is somewhere in between a tt and a skim. But then I got it in powered up conditions: Crazy hold and drive in the turns! I think much more (or at least different) from a surfboard because it has a mini tri fin, but also sharp rails, so you can use both to turn. Also the channels in the bottom. You can basically rip a hard turn at any time, no matter how fast you are going. The turns tend to be shorter radius than a surfboard, which is actually good for river swell b/c they are so close together. Also, because it’s a bit slower than my usual boards (I think it’s probably more like a normal surfboard speed) it actually is much easier on big steep swells. It holds you back a bit so you stay on the swell—not flying immediately down the trough. It also makes it easy to keep tension in the kite lines. It was by far the most in control I have ever been on big swells, and it actually let me get way more turns in per swell, because I wouldn’t outrun it so fast.

The board also has flex like a twintip, which is a big change for me. This makes landing jumps way softer! At the end, I was able to consistently get waist high strapless jumps off chop ramps (and sheeting in on the kite), float in the air, then redirect about 90 degrees and land in the trough of the upwind swell, on the slight downhill slope. Totally smooth landings every time. This is so much harder on a skimboard, and a surfboard is so big than it’s hard to control in the air. I normally don’t try much jumping, and never this high or in control. This made low altitude jumping fun, and very easy. Okay, it’s not 30 ft, but it’s actually very fun for what it is, and I would like to try taking it off bigger ramps—without breaking my ankles and heals like on a skim.

In general, this board makes powered strapless riding very easy—I could consistently do things I can rarely do on other boards. It finally let me begin working on toeside carves on my atrophied fakie side. You can also charge at high speed through the chop, and it feels as stable as a twintip. I never even felt like the straps were missing at all—pretty strange. I think it’s because it tracks so well. Not technical to ride--could be a good way to begin experimenting with strapless riding. Also, jibing was easier than I’m used to.

I think a skimboard with fins would have some of these properties, but I’ve never tried one. That would be a pretty good way to go—taking the fins on and off for different conditions. But the skim will still be way more technical in high wind. The mark shin skimboard looks too big to me for gorge conditions.

Anyways, I think this style of board is an interesting option as an extra board for people who are looking for a directional carver for river swell or the coast, but don’t want to give up jumping with straps. I think the straps option would be awesome for big or chaotic waves. This seems like one of the few boards that could be ridden equally well strapless or strapped (I am guessing), because it’s small, strong, and flexy like a twintip. The ability to jump over waves with a small, flexy board, and also carve up the faces, seems pretty unique. It’s a different feeling than a floaty, fat railed surfboard, but I think the peter trow wave board is kind of in this direction. Ideal I think is a strapless surfboard in small or very well formed waves, and one of these strapped, less buoyant boards in big waves or really high wind.

Anyways, this kind of board and 5m waroo are a special and well matched combo. One of my best sessions ever I would say. In the next couple years, I think the windsurfers are going to have a lot more company at their favorite spots.

blowhard · Since 26 Dec 2005 2025 Posts Windward

That Best boy has a lot going on ,he looks pretty smart about now

bambam · Since 15 Mar 2005 760 Posts Hood River Photographer

Nice write up Gabe, but ya know that we have been riding 30-35 in comfort down here in the Gorge for a number of years now and sharing water with the windskippers up at the Hatchery/Swell.

IMO, it is much more about the rider than the gear...

Jon

shymac · Since 20 Jul 2005 919 Posts Home Valley, Wa. Bigfoot

HAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHHAHHAHHHHHHH

LAME....

MORE PICS LESS WORDS

It would be nice to see that combo in action then getting to read all about it.

gabe · Since 16 May 2005 475 Posts Obsessed

Totally agree, I used to kite in the same conditions last year and you guys have been forever. But, I found I really like it on the 5... Very Happy

Just sharing my findings for those that are interested. For better or worse, I think this kind of gear will make high wind kiting appealing to a lot more people.

shymac · Since 20 Jul 2005 919 Posts Home Valley, Wa. Bigfoot

HAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHHHAHHAHHA

STILL LAME.....

bambam · Since 15 Mar 2005 760 Posts Hood River Photographer

Joe T... 15m lines and an old Wipi Classic... Killing the Hatchery when the big dudes were out on 3.5's...

Still Lame???

Jon

pdxmonkeyboy · Tue Jun 20, 06 9:48 am

Good post Gabe, I thought it was an informative write-up. A 5-meter may be a good option with my current CB 9 and 16 quiver. I'm thinking the 9 may be a bit much for atomic conditions at rooster in the fall. Too much overlap with a 7 though. Still on the fence though, and broke to boot so for right now i'll just read about smaller kites.

A 5-meter must be like a bumble bee on a string though. What are you using for a bar? Something the size of a toilet paper roll?

blowhard · Since 26 Dec 2005 2025 Posts Windward

I think high wind is the ONLY wind and have thought so for a long time,,
my 8's are always wore out ,
I'm ordering new waroo's not for safety or depower but because they rip(and depower)

pkh · Since 27 Feb 2005 6548 Posts Couve / Hood Site Lackey

I don't have much high wind strapless/directional experience, but I have logged probably 100+ hours on my 7m C kite enough to know what high wind is all about. 20m lines, yes. Big swell, yep. Jumping, of course!

After trying lots of flats and being very skeptical, I got the Waroo now, and the differences are clear. Here's my take:

C Kite Pros:
- The edging to save your life feeling is a little exciting
- Way more whip in jumps
- More juice in the turns
- Kiteloops are more spectacular (if you have the gonads to throw them.)
- Kite rolling on the water not such a big deal (w/o 5th line at least.)

C Kite Cons:
- You can and will get worked more frequently (unless you just play it safe)
- Edging is key at the high end of the kite
- Much less hangtime then same sized flat kite
- Launching and landing is usually sketch

Flat Kite Pros:
- Huge depower, just drop the bar and the kite pull goes away completely but kite keeps flying
- More speed control, ride really fast, or slow
- Not so dependent on edging and speed for power control
- Ride straight upwind at swells
- Kill the kite power right when you carve so all you feel is your momentum and the water
- Lots and lots of hang time, and easier to stick landings when going big
- Low to the water spins are easy because you just sheet out when you are ready to land, no over rotating

Flat Kite Cons:
- Wrapping the bridle around the tip isn't too hard to do after a big (kite) crash, basically requires a self rescue
- I am not 100% happy with any of the bar solutions out there right now
- Kite can invert if you don't mind backline tension when shooting it through the window
- More upper body movement, and arms can get a workout from all the sheeting
- Doesn't feel as hardcore? (Bammer would not approve!)

Anyhoo, I challenge anyone to give one of these kites a run for a week or so. Even after I bought mine I wasn't sure, after 1 session I still wasn't convinced, 2 sessions still not sure, but then after a couple weekends I am finding it impossible for me to go back to my old kites. My 9m C kite feels like a big slow tank now.

YRMV.

Onad · Tue Jun 20, 06 10:37 am

Gabe, good info in your write up... Thumb's Up

I’m interested in hearing which other SLE & ‘C’ kites have you flown in the last year?

I’m not looking for a comparison with other SLE & ‘C’ kites, just would like to understand your perspective as it relates to writing the review on this equipment.

Thx, Dano

bambam · Since 15 Mar 2005 760 Posts Hood River Photographer

Phillip,

I approve of anything that gets ya out on the water and stoked to be there... Just for myself, my trusty 8m Torch II w/17m lines is the high wind weapon of choice... Although you guys on longer lines will be able to most likely jump right over me and my kite...

Jon

pkh · Since 27 Feb 2005 6548 Posts Couve / Hood Site Lackey

Hey I think your setup suits your style way better, that's all I was saying. I hope you never switch because I really like those unhooked kiteloops of yours!

bambam · Since 15 Mar 2005 760 Posts Hood River Photographer

Bam, bam bam bam... BAM!

Gotta have the bam and those C-Kites can dish out some serious abuse that only the BAM could enjoy...

Unhook, send it LOW and HARD, and just pray for the best...

Jon

PS: Just started getting my hand on the bar on some pass moves. Look for future carnage at a beach near you... I do have medical and will start carrying the card with my phone number in case you come across me unconcious in the water Wink

gabe · Since 16 May 2005 475 Posts Obsessed

monkeyboy: i actually use a 24" naish bar on it! jerry uses a 22" also. most people would think that's crazy, but for free riding i have never had a kite turn too fast. i imagine it would be hairy for freestyle though!!!

i agree with dax's points also. but i actually really like the turbo diesel bar system, and have no problems with getting tired. i began doing pull ups to avoid injuries though, since i'm just a weekend kiter. i have also never had any of my small waroos invert and i have had them in serious wind and swept them through the window so depowered they whole thing was fluttering to hell.

Onad: i didn't really mean this as a waroo review, more as a general review of a really small flat kite. as far as i know, waroo is the only flat 5m available. i also have 7 and 9 waroos, and never had best gear before. i guess my comparison is mainly b/w the 7 and 5 waroo, b/c that is what i would have otherwise used in this wind before. 2yrs ago i used a 7m CO2 in maui most of the time, and i used a windwing rage 2 8m pretty much every session last year in the gorge and in the winter. i used the optional depower bridles half the time, so it was kind of like a quasi bow, and i had a very long chicken loop, so i think i am much more accustomed to this style of flying and trimming the kite than most people who are now buying flat kites. i tried a 9m xbow very briefly when it first came out. i have flown some bigger kites also, but most of my time on small kites. hope that helps.

shymac: i am sorry, i don't travel with a camera crew. i kite wherever it looks fun, not where people are taking pictures. cameras usually aren't close to big swell. i wish i had pictures also, but will have to savor it in the mind's eye! i'm just out to have fun for myself.

Onad · Tue Jun 20, 06 12:11 pm

Thanks for the reply Gabe.

Very nice overview pkh.

It’s a very exciting time we are experiencing with all the innovations in kite & board design....

I’m really excited about spending more time on the SLEs in the waves & watching the developments of surf kitesurf boards for the Gorge & Ocean. Kitesurf boards were all the rage when I was in Maui in March.
~D

shymac · Since 20 Jul 2005 919 Posts Home Valley, Wa. Bigfoot

Thats F-in Killer... Trashin ...