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wakeup
Since 11 Sep 2005
328 Posts
always
Obsessed
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 Tue Feb 02, 10 6:47 am |
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| werd |
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Chooch
Since 18 Nov 2007
1871 Posts
Wicked Pissah
Boston Tea Bagger
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| Tue Feb 02, 10 7:06 am |
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| I might take one of those off your hands Joby. |
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tautologies
Since 24 Aug 2006
602 Posts
Oahu
Addicted
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| Tue Feb 02, 10 3:17 pm |
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| wakeup wrote: | uh
it certainly can change the feel of the kite
i have used a pulley bar exclusively for 7 yrs, and know this for a fact
sold a bar to twin fin
i have more if anyone wants them |
...but that is not what I am saying though. Yes riding a kite with a pulley bar changes the feel, same way a stopper changes the feel. It does not however change the characteristics of the kite. They are inherent.
[rant]
Hein. Really? The "They don't understand argument"? You know, as a guy who uses engineering and technology to approach board shaping that you can, if you input the same parameters into your CNC, make boards that have the same qualities. And as long as all the parameters stay the same it will not change the handling of the boards.
Well the interface of a kite is 4 lines. This is the only input it takes for control. There is NO significant difference (at the length of the lines) between pulling in 10 centimeter of one backline compared to pulling in 5 cm and at the same time letting out 5 cm on both front lines and you know this is the case.
It is totally fine that you like the pulley bar better. That is a personal preference, but there is no magic happening here and there certainly is nothing a stopper can't do (unless you really like having your hand in the center with no lines running through your fingers).
[/rant]
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wakeup
Since 11 Sep 2005
328 Posts
always
Obsessed
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| Wed Feb 03, 10 7:54 am |
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the way a kite feels is a "characteristic" of the kite
the length of the pulley line changes the way any kite will feel(bar pressure) and its' turning characteristics
i have found this true on everything from 2001 c kites to newer hybrid style c's
yes, the flying lines remain the same lengths so the kite will remained tuned properly, but the feel of the kite will change by lengthening or shortening that line |
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tautologies
Since 24 Aug 2006
602 Posts
Oahu
Addicted
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| Wed Feb 03, 10 3:14 pm |
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| wakeup wrote: | the way a kite feels is a "characteristic" of the kite
the length of the pulley line changes the way any kite will feel(bar pressure) and its' turning characteristics
i have found this true on everything from 2001 c kites to newer hybrid style c's
yes, the flying lines remain the same lengths so the kite will remained tuned properly, but the feel of the kite will change by lengthening or shortening that line |
I guess we could discuss what characteristic of a kite is, but IMO the kite feels the same on a pulley bar as it does with stopper, which is what I meant. The kite will NOT turn faster or handle significantly different from a longer regular bar with a stopper (see my example above). It is just not possible.
There is no bar pressure on a pulley bar. Bar pressure is what you have when you power up a regular kite with no stopper.
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$ociopath
Since 28 Nov 2007
523 Posts
Twilight Zone
Addicted
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kitezilla
Since 22 Jun 2006
453 Posts
gorge
Obsessed
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Hein
Since 08 Mar 2005
1314 Posts
Possessed
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| Wed Feb 03, 10 8:57 pm |
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twatologies is right. no need for pulley bars. I'm burning mine.
Last edited by Hein on Thu Feb 04, 10 7:24 am; edited 1 time in total |
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tautologies
Since 24 Aug 2006
602 Posts
Oahu
Addicted
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| Wed Feb 03, 10 10:40 pm |
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| perryj wrote: | | I don't think that is the case I think when one side pulls harder the pulley racks to one side or the other hence the shorter the rope it rolls on the greater the effect. |
well when you turn the kite to pulley bar will let out some on the front lines. However, like I said above, the pulley bars are usually shorter which decreases this effect. There is no difference between pulling in 10 cm on one back line compared to pulling 5 cm on one back line and at the same time letting out 5 cm on both front line. The net effect is the same (same as measuring ground speed. It doesn't matter if you or the ground move. The net effect is the same. |
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Spike
Since 13 May 2007
1414 Posts
Alameda
Spelling Expert
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| Thu Feb 04, 10 12:52 am |
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I think that when one line pulls harder than the center-line, you have to be careful. If you imagine that you are far out and you are pulling hard, then you might get into a bad situation  . Line lengths are dictated to be long enough to get the right pull, you don't want a line to snap do you? I say get a good bar. If you feel that is is pulling too hard you just loosen it up. Easy to do if you have a buddy. It is the inexperienced that get it handed to them and go for the fishes! Plus if you have no board you might as well be roasting marshmallows. It always pays off to keep a stash somewhere nearby in case you run out, or fall in the butter. Since then, things got better and we don't have to worry so much about these things. Real pirates will go for it no matter what's out there, and say no to even surfers. Next time you rip, look around, you will probably see some other monkeys that have never been out that far before either, you know? Give them a banana and you will not regret it. Monkeys provide lots of laughs. Don't kite with gorillas though, they are too big, probably too scared, its something we need to address, scared monkeys do not belong on the ocean. |
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tautologies
Since 24 Aug 2006
602 Posts
Oahu
Addicted
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| Thu Feb 04, 10 1:35 am |
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| Hein wrote: | Not that it makes much difference but there is a difference.
Effect is that the front lines are extended slightly while turning.
Gain is increased as V line gets shorter.
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this is EXACTLY what I said..and still nothing what a longer bar cannot do.
| Quote: |
If gain is too much then bar won't return to neutral = bad setup.
Behavior is tunable and related to kite geometry and rear line tension.
(My kite returns to neutral if I let go of the bar and it goes to
leash which is connected above harness loop.)
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Granted you can make the kite behave worse with a badly designed pulley bar.
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A stoppered bar may actually shorten front lines while turning.
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This can only happen if you turn your bar almost 90 degrees and you bend the center line. Any other angle is insignificant...we're talking 5 mm.
| Quote: |
Smaller kite is generally used with a pulley bar. Sine-ing the kite is
necessary to keep kite speed/power up and available on demand.
Can't have canopy lose tension when turning as this slows the
speed, thereby reducing responsiveness and power.
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uh, so what is different from a regular bar in this?
| Quote: |
Tuning line length, bar length and V-line length can take advantage
of specific kite geometries and yield a highly maneuverable and
efficient setup.
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[irony]
Can you be a little less specific?
[/irony]
| Quote: |
Sheeting in on the de-power strap can totally alter, destroy the effect.
So smaller kite powered-up is better than a large kite de-powered.
Technique is total opposite of traditional de-power style riding so very
difficult to over come learned reactions. It's an all or nothing kind of thing. |
yes being on the right kite on a pulley bar is important. Same as if you decide to ride with a stopper all the way in on a longer regular bar. Of course on a regular bar you can just disengage the stopper  |
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wakeup
Since 11 Sep 2005
328 Posts
always
Obsessed
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| Thu Feb 04, 10 7:50 am |
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when i said bar pressure, i meant what i feel from the rear lines
with the pulley set up close to the bar you can't feel the kite as much
with it further away, it makes the turning stiff with lots of pressure so if the kite is turning i can feel it without looking at it
i don't use a pulley bar to speed up the turning of the kites. i like all my kites to fly like a 10m. I want my kite to set at 30- 40 degrees off the water and stay there with not much effort from me to keep it there. makes it feel like riding at the cable park!!!
i use a 12" bar on my 6m and 8m, and a 14" bar on the 10m and 12m
i ride wakestyle and unhooked, hanging on by one hand a lot of the time. i don't want the kite going all over the place while i am hanging on by one hand
to each his own---
anybody that wants a sweet pulley bar, i've got 5 or 6 left
most are 15" and a few are 17" |
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forrest
Since 21 Jun 2005
4330 Posts
Hood River
Hick
CGKA Member
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| Thu Feb 04, 10 9:32 am |
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| I'll take one Joby. |
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Inept_Fun
Since 14 Apr 2005
1417 Posts
Hood River
XTreme Poster
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| Thu Feb 04, 10 9:39 am |
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man twatologies you must really be killing it dude, you know so much about pulley bars im sure you have been using one for years now. And really if I use a different bar it doesnt change the characteristics of the kite?? I would have never guessed if it werent for this great piece of knowledge. Why dont you save your time to talk about something you might know something about, maybe footstraps and 5:1 depower bars, and save the pulley bar discussion for people who actually ride and design them.
_________________
I heart dangling |
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pdxmonkeyboy
Since 16 May 2006
6081 Posts
forever labled as the
retired kiter & motorhead Unicorn Master
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| Thu Feb 04, 10 10:48 am |
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| kitezilla wrote: | http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/5987841/
I'm just saying... |
lmfao THAT IS SOME FUNNY SHIT RIGHT THERE!! |
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tautologies
Since 24 Aug 2006
602 Posts
Oahu
Addicted
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| Thu Feb 04, 10 11:36 am |
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| Inept_Fun wrote: | | man twatologies |
lol inventive. If designing pulleybars require the same level of inventiveness you must be making a killing.
| Quote: |
you must really be killing it dude, you know so much about pulley bars im sure you have been using one for years now. And really if I use a different bar it doesnt change the characteristics of the kite?? I would have never guessed if it werent for this great piece of knowledge. Why dont you save your time to talk about something you might know something about, maybe footstraps and 5:1 depower bars, and save the pulley bar discussion for people who actually ride and design them. |
Again, sigh, we might have different understanding of what characteristics mean, but the way I see it you can compare switching bar as switching remotes on your tv. It doesn't change the potential of the TV, but it can limit the use.
Btw. you might feel good because you use a pulleybar, but the fact remains: as long as your input does not change nothing on the kite can change. But hey your are welcome to live in an alternate reality where thing magically happen and unicorns likes candy mountains. |
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Moto
Since 03 Sep 2006
2698 Posts
Still a gojo pimp!
Moto Mouth
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| Thu Feb 04, 10 11:50 am |
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| tautologies wrote: | | But hey your are welcome to live in an alternate reality where thing magically happen and unicorns likes candy mountains. |
Dude, there is nothing wrong with Candy Mountain (except that it will still your liver) 
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Still rockin gojos, *ssless chaps, and ankle weights! |
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