OREGON MEASURE 66 and 67. OREGON WSJ REDUX

drtaamc · Since 24 Jul 2008 120 Posts Stoked

To all you anti-tax , anti-government advocates. Here’s a discussion based on fact and reality on the ground. I’ll premise my discussion with full disclosure. I’m a veterinarian who has owned his own veterinary hospital (small business owner) for over 20 years a bit West of Portland in Aloha. My gross receipts are close to three quarters of a million and my net profits ~ one quarter of that. I have been hurt by the current economic conditions. I’ve been a member of the wind and surf community (windsurfing, surfing and for the last 5 years kitesurfing) since 1980. Perhaps before some of you were born? I’ve lived in Oregon continuously since 1986.

First regarding Oregon’s tax rates. Oregon’s overall personal tax burden ranking is 26th highest out of 50. http://money.cnn.com/2009/04/10/pf/taxes/state_tax_rates/index.htm The corporate friendly ranking is 24th out of 50. This ranking is based on corporate tax rates. http://www.chiefexecutive.net/media/usbestandworststates/2009/ These tax rates are hardly what I’d call an oppressive rate of taxation in comparison with other states. More like average. For Stevegriffith22, I’ll point out that Washington’s personal tax burden ranking is 35th out of 50 (8.9% vs. 9.4%). That’s 0.5% difference or $500 dollars per $100,000 of personal taxable income between Oregon and Washington. However, Washington is ranked 40th best corporate friendly states.

What I fail to see in the discussion so far is why would a business choose any place to locate other than the states that gave them the cheapest tax rates? The answer is there’s more to where a business locates than the taxation rates. Phil Knight and Nike are a perfect example. Do you think he’s going to move Nike from Beaverton? Think again. A very important factor is the quality of life. Now I don’t think there are many of you on this forum who would be willing to dispute the incredible quality of life we have living here in OR. For outdoor recreation enthusiasts I don’t know of a better place to live…well maybe Hawaii. But look at their tax rates. Let’s face it Oregon is a damn nice place to live. Why shouldn’t there be a premium placed on living here? It hasn’t seemed to stop the influx of people into the state. That’s part of the unemployment problem with the state. Many well-educated college graduates keep moving here despite the lack of jobs. They move here because of the quality of life and some become the entrepreneurs of the future. Google to The Dalles and Facebook to Prineville are two prime examples. Why does Portland have the hottest restaurant scene in the country? Because of its quality of life. Bottom line is businesses move to places sometimes because of the quality of life they provide for their workers. Which brings me to my next issue.

Taxation. Why even pay any taxes? As a society we have decided that certain things should be taken care of by government. Defense, national infrastructure such as roads, waterways, and power grids, judicial systems to protect our rights including our property rights, education including subsidized college education at public universities (oops not doing that so much anymore due to tax cuts), fire departments, police departments, regulatory agencies which protect our well being, and services that care for the weakest members of our society through programs that include Medicare, Medicaid, Welfare and other programs to care for the sick, disabled and the elderly. I refer to all these services as THE COMMONS. These services have to be paid for. The problem is that for most people the only thing they ever get to vote on is whether they pay more for THE COMMONS. When was the last time PGE sent you a ballot to ask you if you wanted to pay more or less for your electricity?

People complain about how inefficient government is. Compared to what? The giant multinational banks that just had to be bailed out with taxpayer money to the tune of 750 billion dollars? The private health insurance companies that cost the government 7% more to fund privately insured Medicare than for government run Medicare? To the private military contractors who charge more for services regular troops could provide at far less expense? The statement that private industry is more efficient than government run programs is just flat out false. It’s an ideology not based in reality, that’s been heavily propagandized (especially in places like the WSJ editorial page). There are more than a few studies to prove this. Look them up. The bottom line is we always want the most efficient delivery of the services we’re paying for. Right now the government does what we ask it to do pretty efficiently. Furthermore, when was the last time you heard of a government CEO collecting millions in bonuses?

Why have progressive taxation? Who stands to lose the most if the infrastructure is crumbling, the judicial system can’t protect your property rights and there’s not a good education system for our youth? If you answered the wealthy you’re correct. The wealthier you are the more you have to lose, both personally and from a business stand point. If you can’t get your product to market, or you can’t find qualified well educated employees to work for you what good is a low tax rate? Starting to get the picture? It’s only fair that those who benefit the most from the commons pay the most. Now some of you might cite the Laffer Curve (look it up) and other such non-sense to support your low tax argument. If our tax rates were in the 90% range that might be the case, but there’s not an economist out there that would argue that our combined state and federal rates even come close to causing what proponents of the Laffer Curve argue.

Furthermore, if low rates of taxation and tax cuts were the driver of economic growth and prosperity, with all the tax cuts we’ve been spoon fed since 1980 we should all be rich and the unemployment rate should be 2%. If that isn’t enough proof for anyone that this model doesn’t work then you haven’t been paying attention, or your only reading the editorial page of the WSJ.

Since 1980 when this Milton Friedman/Ayn Rand economic model was begun, we have seen nothing but boom and bust through 2000 and finally the collapse that we see today. Remember when Republicans argued with a straight face that the tax cuts would pay for themselves? LOL. More Laffer Curve BS. Remember when George HW Bush called it ‘voodoo economics” when Reagan spoke of it in the presidential primaries of 1980? He was right. Historically if you look back at the decades before the Great Depression the same thing happened. It wasn’t until the top marginal tax rates were increased and government programs to support the weakest among us implemented, did we start to see steady economic growth that lasted for 30 years. Oh yeah and that giant government stimulus/works project that really pulled us out of the Great Depression called WWII. Guess what? WWII was paid for thru deficit spending. That was followed by the GI Bill, higher top marginal rates, increased regulation of banks, social security and other government programs. Hell the top marginal rate through the 50’s and 60’s was more than 70%!!! Remember the 50’s and 60’s when one-earner households were the norm? I guess they didn’t know about the Laffer Curve in the 50’s and 60’s?

In fact, economic studies out of Princeton show that whenever top marginal tax rates (including corporate and capital gains) have been increased the economy experienced slow steady growth. Whenever, top marginal rates were decreased we saw the boom bust cycles that led to the Great Depression, the crash of 1987, the dot com crash and the current 2nd Great Depression. The only time we saw a tax increase in the last 30 years was in 1992 during the recession that followed shortly after the 1st Iraq War. Clinton raised top marginal rates and we saw steady economic growth, which then boomed when capital gains taxes were cut in the late 90’s, leading to the burst of the dot.com bubble and the recession of 2001. It was the repeal of Great Depression era banking regulations like Glass-Steagal that led to the current financial morass we’re in.

The policies that were enacted following the Great Depression are what led to the strong vibrant demographic in this country that we refer to as the middle class. The middle class is not a natural Lassaiz Faire capitalist demographic. It is a manufactured demographic class brought about through government manipulation and regulation. What we have witnessed over the past 30 years is a systematic attempt to dismantle the middle class and return us to the economic conditions prior to the Great Depression. It is class war and the wealthy are winning. And as long as they can keep propagandizing people like Hein, and his supporters on this forum, to believe as they do, the wealthy class will continue to win. In Warren Buffet’s own words, “it is class warfare and my class is winning”. Over the past 30 years real wages adjusted for inflation have declined and wealth has been shifted from the middle class to the wealthy elite. If you “don’t earn shit” why would you support policies that keep you earning “shit”? To be some kind of tough guy?

Regarding Oregon and PERS. In the recession of the early 1990’s state employees negotiated away cost of living increases for better retirement benefits. It helped the state balance the budget back then, but it’s come around to bite them. You can’t take away benefit’s that were negotiated for in good faith and we’re contractually obligated to pay. However, the case was brought before the Oregon Supreme Court about 5 years back and the Oregon Supreme Court modified PERS for at the time current employees costing them as much as a third of their pension or more. The state has already changed the PERS formula for newer employees. Enough said, but I’ll reiterate what I said earlier, when was the last time you heard about obscene bonuses being paid out to state employees? Maybe the state should just fire all employees a year or so before their eligible for full retirement benefits like many corporations do? It’d save a ton of money?

And yes, the editorial page of the WSJ is a bastion of right wing corporatist propaganda espousing propaganda for the wealthiest 1/10th of 1% of the country and no the Oregonian is not a “liberal” newspaper.

In closing all of you are entitled to your own opinions, but please remember that doesn’t include your own facts.

SAVE OREGON VOTE YES ON 66 AND 67 Wink

$ociopath · Since 28 Nov 2007 523 Posts Twilight Zone Addicted

The answer to your question is YES this is a kiteboarding forum. NO this is not a political debate forum

Kodiak · Since 01 Aug 2005 1114 Posts Slidey

Granted this is a kiteboarding forum, but I have to say that was a very well thought out post. I actually read the giant wall of text and it is nice to see a well thought out and reasoned argument for OR against any new legislation, whether you agree or disagree with what was said.

The only flaw in this is that I see Phil out kiteboarding when he should be putting my taxpayer money to more efficient use :p

Moto · Since 03 Sep 2006 2698 Posts Still a gojo pimp! Moto Mouth

Dude, come on. Lets talk kites - not taxes. I only care about taxes that affect my kites.

nwpolitics is the other forum.

drtaamc · Since 24 Jul 2008 120 Posts Stoked

Hey Moto, Dude, I saw you commenting on the previous post by Hein. Don't pretend to be above the fray;)

What can I say? It's slow and it's still too cold to entice me into the water.

Looking forward to those nice long Summer down winders on the N. Coast with overhead surf.

Moto · Since 03 Sep 2006 2698 Posts Still a gojo pimp! Moto Mouth

blowhard · Since 26 Dec 2005 2028 Posts Windward

Paying for merit seems not in your story
I would be happy to see a bonus system for state employees
and so would all of "Hein supporters" I would bet
but the public employees will have nothing to do with it.

I would vote for a merit based system for pay and a flat tax for services,
But making up tax rates for people I wouldn't touch ,who decides who is more taxable,
we want underachievers rewarded ?
and over achieviers penalized ?
somehow that sounds backwards

Managing as a CEO is not something just anyone can do
if they could they would,
fairly simple
do you think that if corporations could pay less and get the job done,
they wouldn't ?

Taking a situation such as these times and this business situation we need every smart fuker we can find no matter what the cost to pay him, if he makes the shareholders money that's what makes the world go round
regardless of the opinions and slants on history.

We all need to make money ,there is no divide between public and private employees ,between smart hard working execs and guys fixing cats or gals working for the state
we all need the same things
When one sector excedes the other an adjustment is coming
bet on it
I've never met anyone who made too much money Laughing

Nak · Fri Jan 22, 10 5:19 pm

Interesting read.

Well thought out and well written. I think your arguments would carry more weight though without the personal attack on "Hein and his followers". Hein makes rational and well thought out arguments as well. When you stoop to criticizing the individual, rather than his argument, you imply that you can't find fault with their argument. Plus, you get people pissed off. When people are pissed, they're less likely to give thought to your points. Political debate should be informative, interesting, and fun.

Clearly, The Wall Street Journal is a conservative paper. Just as clearly though, the Oregonian is a liberal paper. Not as liberal as some, but liberal never the less. That's a good thing. It's great to be able to read about both sides of the story. You should read the newspapers in China... Very Happy

K4L · Since 19 Jan 2009 483 Posts Obsessed

eric · Since 13 Jan 2006 1867 Posts XTreme Poster

<<Say no to the Public Employee
Union & Teacher's Union and their propaganda of
fear. >>

Seems like a personal attack to me, with no supporting facts. Just more "propaganda."

Nak · Fri Jan 22, 10 6:44 pm

LP · Since 05 Apr 2007 115 Posts HR Stoked

Excellent post doc, thanks for taking the time.

kitebot · Since 20 Feb 2007 251 Posts Obsessed

blowhard · Since 26 Dec 2005 2028 Posts Windward

Hein · Since 08 Mar 2005 1314 Posts Possessed

OUCH:
http://portland.bizjournals.com/portland/stories/2010/01/18/daily55.html

WOW:

Link

Bettyboarder · Fri Jan 22, 10 8:38 pm

Locking post