get ready to bend over for CAP & TRADE

Hein · Since 08 Mar 2005 1314 Posts Possessed

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123655590609066021.html

dangerD · Since 27 Jun 2005 223 Posts Bingen Heights Stoked

you better start making boards from hemp resin and fecal-foam or you're gonna pay!

Hein · Since 08 Mar 2005 1314 Posts Possessed

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124588837560750781.html

pacifichigh · Since 11 May 2005 1004 Posts ATX Texan

http://greeninc.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/24/how-much-cap-and-trade-bill-would-cost-families/

The Congressional Budget Office just released data yesterday putting the cost of a carbon contstrained economy at $175/year per family in 2020. Not exactly breaking the bank.

Hein · Since 08 Mar 2005 1314 Posts Possessed

bwd · Since 04 Aug 2007 385 Posts Obsessed

If they pass this crap it will be like clark foam but for all industries: many "carbon emitters" will just cash out and not bother, costs will escalate, quality will suffer and many products will cease to be available. If more pollution measures are needed, fine, I support that, but this is not the way.

It will make for a richer oligarchy, but have little global impact on pollution.
Someone, somewhere, will burn what has to be burned to get the job done, because if they don't they will starve.

Ratcheting down carbon emission in a growing world, is a zero sum situation that means shrinkage and ultimately death, of businesses, and even of people. This can sell for a little while in zero-growth postindustrial areas, but globally it won't work.

Accepting it is striking a faustian bargain for a fleeting touch of approval for being "Green" until the goalposts are moved further.

Which begs the question, after selling your soul for a pat on the back, what have you got left?

Carbon credits maybe?
Not money, the politicians will make sure you just have "change."

tinyE · Since 21 Jan 2006 2004 Posts not really an XTreme Poster

someday, kiting forum != politics

Link

pdxmonkeyboy · Thu Jun 25, 09 2:38 pm

It's about godamn time. Finally our elected officials are willing to chalange the age old bullshit that increased effeciencies and pollution controls will put people out of business.

Before going off on some draconian the sky is falling businesses are crumbling tirade maybe google global energy and natural resource usage rates per capita. Pretty shocking stuff.

But then again, you can always keep your head in the sand and decry all the energy efficiency stuff as left wing bullshit. Worked for GM....

eric · Since 13 Jan 2006 1872 Posts XTreme Poster

Hein,

Do you vote?

bwd · Since 04 Aug 2007 385 Posts Obsessed

It ain't efficiency I decry (or the original poster, I suspect).

It's the "left wing bullshit,"
and the right wing bullshit,
but most of all, the carbon credits scams
that politicians seem to be getting suckers to suck on, all over the "post-industrial" world.

In case anyone hasn't noticed, carbon schemes have been mainly a way for hedge funds to get richer, politicians to play favorites, and consumers to get expensive funny lookin light bulbs that will be obsolete in --
wait, uh already obsolete!
How may times do you think the artificial obsolescence acceleration cycle will repeat before it becomes unsustainable?
Probably fewer than you think, especially if extended to every industry!

Sure wonks have a 5 or 15 year prediction of how much carbon scams might help, but how bloody likely is that, when the other 65% of the world keeps on industrializing dirty just to keep people alive? (And line greedy pockets!)
And by the way as they do industrialize and sell to each other, the resources they exploit will be no longer imputable to the liberalguilt-ridden US consumer or Euron.

Some may call me a cynic, but I am not saying, "men are dogs."
I am saying look at the big picture, and my point, actually, is men are not dogs, and it's immoral to treat them as such, as our wonderful governments, and some of our sterling corporations seem to be doing these days.
And I honestly think the carbon scheme is a scam, and won't work. If I though it would work, I might not dismiss it so quickly.
Efficiency and pollution improvements are vital, but the carbon scam is not the way to get there.

As far as the crack about GM, gee that's juvenile and OT.
I will say though, everyone knows their problems stem from too many employees with moustaches. Laughing

And the UAW. Wink

Anyway, I agree to disagree. Later.

pdxmonkeyboy · Thu Jun 25, 09 10:39 pm

I can't quite decide which is more astounding. That someone would somehow mange to be opposed to compact fluorescent light bulbs or that someone not seeing that energy efficiencies reduce carbon emissions.

Tommy · Fri Jun 26, 09 12:20 am

Definitely with Monkey on this one. It bears mention that this article comes from the WSJ's editorial (read: right wing propaganda) page, rather than the business (read: real news... the last couple paragraphs of any given article, anyway) page. Consider the source, people, consider the source...

Hein · Since 08 Mar 2005 1314 Posts Possessed

What does Cap & Trade have to do with florescent bulbs?

You guys should try to present some better arguments that show how cap & trade is a good thing and how it will help the environment & stimulate business & job creation. Rather than discounting all challenges to the idea as right wing propaganda <- easy way out.

Blind faith will get you nowhere. Do your own math/research for a change.

Sure, the planet is heating up. But human activity only produces about 5% of global C02 emissions. Reducing it to 3 or 4% ain't gonna do squat. Plus consider the possiblity that the sun (the only real energy source we have) is getting a little hotter with age. Or that volcanoes and other natural sources spew way more shit into the atmosphere than we humans do.

As if global warming was really that bad. A slightly warmer planet will likely be able to support more food production to feed the hungry.

Sad to see the greatest economy on earth being burdened by such nonsense.

This same kind of fear and blind trust in the environment doomsayers killed nuclear power. The very thing that could have given us clean power for the last 20 years and well into the future. Instead we are littering the country side with wind mills that can't come even close to making a dent in our future energy needs.

Cap & Trade is the biggest scam in history of this country.

bwd · Since 04 Aug 2007 385 Posts Obsessed

Well, opportune that you would pick such a great example of misconceptions forced on us by well meaning "greens" and corporate opportunists as an illustration.

Consider: about 4 BN people live in temperate zones at 35 degrees latitude or greater. You guys in/around Portland live around 45N, for example.
Don't tell me you don't appreciate the radiant heat of your little incandescent bulbs on a cold rany day or on a snowy night.

Or do you put cfl's everywhere, feeling and looking "green" while your wife slips into the next room to turn up the thermostat? hmmmm....
Not all the heat from incandescents is wasted, see? And not all the benefits of green tech are realized in application.

CFLs look bad, cost too much and are already being replaced by next generation products, even the makers/marketers admit they suck.
Even the $100+ ones for video production only look right in digital, not in real life.
So that's my take on CFLs.

I think we all agree efficiency is good and we need a lot more efficiency in the developed world.
I just don't support crap and trade as the way to do it.
It is primarily a money making scam, and a way for big business and government to get a tighter grip on everyones throats.
Targeted legislation and incentives for "green" innovation are a better way to go.

The problem with Green is that it's the new red, anyway.
With the business and government buy-in, it's no longer a pure idea.
Now it's "Big Green" not little Green.
Some of the goals are laudable, but the means of getting there, and the unappreciated casualties along the way, make it very suspect.

pacifichigh · Since 11 May 2005 1004 Posts ATX Texan

Cap and trade encourages innovation and creates market based solutions.

The SO2 market in the United States has been an overwhelming success from both an environmental and finacial point of view.

You can bitch and moan all you like, and while Waxman-Markey is far from perfect its a step forward & today's vote at 5:00 sends a loud message that will resonate throughout the world.

For all you haters out there. Carbon markets in 2008 grew to $126 BILLION dollars, sounds pretty legit to me!

A bunch of hippies sitting around and bitching about the man can't accomplish the types of goals that big business and govts can.

SalmonSlayer · Since 27 Nov 2005 648 Posts Addicted **CGKA Member**

blowhard · Since 26 Dec 2005 2027 Posts Windward