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Nak
Since 19 May 2005
4297 Posts
Camas
Site Lackey
CGKA Member
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 Thu Apr 16, 20 8:55 pm |
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| ay wrote: |
Caps, I do not understand why some people (Republicans) are readily willing to trade lives for the "economy", especially when their economic status can afford kiting, golf, etc. You know what will make the economy a lot worse? A lot more people dying. |
That's a very unfair statement. The "Economy" isn't about the unemployment rate, or a slightly higher inflation rate. If we keep going as we are, at some point there will be a severe global depression. That's what will happen to the "Economy." The death rate from the wars and poverty resulting from that would make Covid-19 seem like a walk in the park. You can argue about how long until that happens, you can not argue that it won't happen at some point. The only question is at what point does the global economy collapse and life as we know it changes forever for the worse. Far worse. At some point we will have no choice but to get back to work and protect only those that are most vulnerable. You know what will make a lot more people die? (Like 1000 x the Covid death toll.) A global depression. That's reality. Those that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it's mistakes.
The conversation should not be about if we get back to work. It absolutely has to be about when. Anything else is just burying your head in the sand. Unfortunately, it seems utterly unlikely that "when" will be after we have beaten Covid-19. Think about this: How long could we have protected the vulnerable if we had sunk the two trillion dollars from the stimulus bill into helping those who need it most? Years. How long can we go along doing what we're doing? Weeks. That's reality whether you like it or not.
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oliver19
Since 25 Jun 2019
84 Posts
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| Fri Apr 17, 20 3:03 am |
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| Nak wrote: | | ay wrote: |
Caps, I do not understand why some people (Republicans) are readily willing to trade lives for the "economy", especially when their economic status can afford kiting, golf, etc. You know what will make the economy a lot worse? A lot more people dying. |
That's a very unfair statement. The "Economy" isn't about the unemployment rate, or a slightly higher inflation rate. If we keep going as we are, at some point there will be a severe global depression. That's what will happen to the "Economy." The death rate from the wars and poverty resulting from that would make Covid-19 seem like a walk in the park. You can argue about how long until that happens, you can not argue that it won't happen at some point. The only question is at what point does the global economy collapse and life as we know it changes forever for the worse. Far worse. At some point we will have no choice but to get back to work and protect only those that are most vulnerable. You know what will make a lot more people die? (Like 1000 x the Covid death toll.) A global depression. That's reality. Those that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it's mistakes.
The conversation should not be about if we get back to work. It absolutely has to be about when. Anything else is just burying your head in the sand. Unfortunately, it seems utterly unlikely that "when" will be after we have beaten Covid-19. Think about this: How long could we have protected the vulnerable if we had sunk the two trillion dollars from the stimulus bill into helping those who need it most? Years. How long can we go along doing what we're doing? Weeks. That's reality whether you like it or not. |
I agree with this. It is naive to think it is a question of lives vs. economy. ULTIMATELY, it is the "economy" that keeps all of us alive. People who don't read or understand the story of human life on this planet (=history) have trouble grasping this concept.
Another way to put this to help people think more clearly about it: If it is simply "lives vs economy", why do we let people drive? Wouldn't banning cars save all the lives of people who die in car accidents?
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Matt V
Since 26 Oct 2014
462 Posts
Summer- OR Coast, Winter - My van near good snow
Explosive Diarrhea
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| Fri Apr 17, 20 4:09 am |
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The above two comments, and many others in this thread, are prime examples of how humanity has lost its perspective from the beginning of the 20th century to the beginning of the 21st century. And it saddens me to read that our grip on reality is so fleeting.
In the last one hundred years we have gone from:
1. Famine to an obesity epidemic in the west
2. Famine caused by crop failure in the third world to famine caused by warlords intentionally holding relief supplies from their fellow countrymen.
3. An economy that once was necessity based that is now luxury based.
4. Fear of more than a 50% chance of death from a deep cut only two hundred years ago, to fear of less than a 5% chance of death from a respiratory virus today.
If the modern economy fails, almost no one will die from that failure. If this virus runs its course virtually unchecked by any human efforts, a small percentage of people with preexisting conditions cannot be saved by modern medical care. If westerners biggest psychological problem is cabin fever, is the "cabin" not the thing to be the most thankful for?
But somehow, this virus is the great crisis that we face in 2020? What a bunch of p-$$!3$ humanity has become in the last hundred years.
My greatest fear is the destruction of the earth caused by the collective "rolling over in their graves" of our ancestors at the realization of whom thier descendants have become. All of the modern luxuries and conveniences have eroded our souls to the point where we can no longer be considered a product of nature, but are now a product of a single generations declining mental state.
But at least this "crisis" gives us a more detailed understanding of a possible explanation of the Great Filter.
At the end of all of this, I am going to make a prediction. "The Virus Channel" will debut sometime in late fall of 2020. It is the only way to satisfy the newly arisen mental condition created by the media (social media too).
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wylieflyote
Since 30 Jun 2006
1648 Posts
Puget Sound & Wa. Coast
XTreme Poster
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| Fri Apr 17, 20 8:43 am |
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| Matt V wrote: |
. All of the modern luxuries and conveniences have eroded our souls to the point where we can no longer be considered a product of nature, but are now a product of a single generations declining mental state.
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“History is filled with the sound of silken slippers going downstairs and wooden shoes coming up.”
― Voltaire
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CGKA Member
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Kip Wylie |
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Matt V
Since 26 Oct 2014
462 Posts
Summer- OR Coast, Winter - My van near good snow
Explosive Diarrhea
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| Fri Apr 17, 20 9:40 am |
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| wylieflyote wrote: | | Matt V wrote: |
. All of the modern luxuries and conveniences have eroded our souls to the point where we can no longer be considered a product of nature, but are now a product of a single generations declining mental state.
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“History is filled with the sound of silken slippers going downstairs and wooden shoes coming up.”
― Voltaire |
I call bs!
"JUDGE A MAN BY HIS QUESTIONS, RATHER THAN BY HIS ANSWERS"
What is deserving of quotes more so is, "It is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established authorities are wrong."
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MSN has temporarily removed commenting on our websites while we explore better ways for you to engage in discussion on the issues you care about. |
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apctjb
Since 19 Aug 2007
438 Posts
Obsessed
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| Fri Apr 17, 20 10:37 am |
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https://www.cntraveler.com/story/emirates-is-giving-rapid-coronavirus-tests-to-passengers-before-boarding
This article illustrates that with testing and tracing resuming segments of the economy can be accomplished without putting lives at risk and undermining the hard work and sacrifices made so far.
It seems more productive to discuss what needs to be in place in order to safely restart, and successfully executing plans to do so rather than debating if and when.
If an airline can figure out how to get back to work while protecting its employees and passengers lets hope our elected officials are capable of doing the same.
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Wind Slither
Since 04 Mar 2005
2619 Posts
The 503
METAL
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| Fri Apr 17, 20 11:47 am |
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https://abcnews.go.com/Health/antibody-research-coronavirus-widespread/story?id=70206121
Possible good news from Stanford testing study.
“Our findings suggest that there is somewhere between 50- and 80-fold more infections in our county than what’s known by the number of cases than are reported by our department of public health,"
And while there is no guarantee of total, long-term immunity even if a person has antibodies, doctors hope that those who do have them may have some degree of immunity protection. Experts hope that could be a tool to help determine who could potentially more safely re-enter the workforce -- and just as importantly -- when.
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Blazeheliski
Since 30 Mar 2011
659 Posts
Mosier
Addicted
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| Fri Apr 17, 20 3:40 pm |
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| ay wrote: | "Trust the people! And it's your choice to venture out if you dare."
"People" are not scientists and individual choice affects us all.
That is terrible to hear that your mother is sick in Parkhurst. All of these difficult measures are to help prevent spread to those of highest risk and unfortunately happened anyways. "There are unidentified and asymptomatic cases in our community."
Political stereotypes? Our current President just cut funding to the WHO. Democrats of all income classes are making better decisions. Friends with businesses in tough shape still get it. As for those being over levered, I have ZERO sympathy for you. Tell your sorrows (through a mask) to the next cashier selling groceries. Completely agree the virus does not play favorites and we are all affected, but some more materially than others.
STAY HOME |
Sorry, I don't have the luxury of staying home. I am a healthcare worker. I was not arguing any of your other points. The only point I was making is that Democrats tend to be in a higher income bracket than Republicans. The opposite was probably true decades ago, but current numbers show the wealthiest districts in the country are majority Democrat. Most of the poorest tend to be Republican. Pitting one income group against another does not help us get through this any easier or faster.
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windfun7
Since 23 Aug 2015
40 Posts
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| Fri Apr 17, 20 6:34 pm |
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| It looks like it's ok to be on the water. There were hundreds boating at Oregon City today.
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ay
Since 11 Oct 2008
112 Posts
HR - ME
Stoked
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| Fri Apr 17, 20 9:14 pm |
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Humanity was overdue for a pandemic. And the economy will have to adjust.
It is an election year and this is political. Things would have been a lot better under a different presidency who doesn't blatantly claim "people should have told us" after being told innumerable times.
Economically disadvantaged Republicans unfortunately vote against their own interests; ie. the deep South.
Do you think now might be a good time for universal healthcare?
STAY HOME (until the west coast Governor's pact lift the order)
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Mark
Since 20 Jun 2005
3678 Posts
I need my fix because I'm a
Naishaholic
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| Sat Apr 18, 20 7:40 am |
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Hood River and all Columbia launch sites need a sign like this. Let's get back to SAFE river access and kiting!!
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93973920_10157315871145823_5197943921845469184_n.jpg |
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Cleverly disguised as an adult...
www.naishkites.com |
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Nak
Since 19 May 2005
4297 Posts
Camas
Site Lackey
CGKA Member
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| Sat Apr 18, 20 7:48 am |
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| ay wrote: | Humanity was overdue for a pandemic. And the economy will have to adjust.
It is an election year and this is political. Things would have been a lot better under a different presidency who doesn't blatantly claim "people should have told us" after being told innumerable times.
Economically disadvantaged Republicans unfortunately vote against their own interests; ie. the deep South.
Do you think now might be a good time for universal healthcare?
STAY HOME (until the west coast Governor's pact lift the order) |
Overly partisan divisiveness won't help and especially has no place on here. Maybe try and stick to the issue at hand?
| Matt V wrote: |
If the modern economy fails, almost no one will die from that failure. |
I wish that was true. Unfortunately history teaches us different. Picture Venezuela, but instead the poverty and riots are world wide. Governments will blame other countries to stay in power. Wars will erupt. Even countries that have the capacity to feed themselves will see opportunity in the chaos and wars will start. No one will give a shit about the environment and global warming will accelerate. Sure, CO2 output is down now, but wait until everyone is burning anything at hand to stay warm. Further chaos will result caused by the fall out of climate change. Further wars will erupt. What do you think was the the result of the last Great Depression? Picture WWII with nuclear weapons. Almost no one will die? Even a VERY conservative guess is tens of millions will die, if not hundreds of millions. Or more.
Ay is absolutely correct. "the economy will have to adjust." It will. And the result won't be pretty. It's what you call a "Great Depression." We can not continue on the path we are on. Remember how the alarm was sounded about Covid-19 back in January and nobody listened? Well the alarm is being sounded now--by plenty of experts--about the coming depression. Will anyone listen this time?
I'm not saying "let her rip." We can protect those who are vulnerable while the rest of us get back to work. Think of the two trillion dollar stimulus bill--money we didn't have and still don't have. What if we just covered the income for the vulnerable among us. Pay them 100% of their salary while they self quarantine. That would cost a fraction of the above amount. And we could easily sustain that for years if required. What we are doing now we can do for just a few weeks more. Maybe a month or two if we are REALLY lucky. Then we have to let her rip. Or we could get smart now and protect those who need it for as long as they need it.
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caps
Since 23 Dec 2010
347 Posts
Obsessed
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| Sat Apr 18, 20 10:23 am |
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| ^^^^^ right on, Nak!
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ay
Since 11 Oct 2008
112 Posts
HR - ME
Stoked
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| Sat Apr 18, 20 10:57 am |
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| Nak wrote: |
Overly partisan divisiveness won't help and especially has no place on here. Maybe try and stick to the issue at hand?
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There is clearly a political divide in managing the pandemic and this is the issue at hand. I want to kite like everybody here, but west coast Governor's have determined not quite there yet. Regardless, we will see what the outcome is in Florida and other red states rushing to reopen against recommendations of science.
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Screen Shot 2020-04-18 at 11.55.42 AM.png |
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Singlemalt
Since 21 Jun 2015
478 Posts
White Salmon
Obsessed
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| Sat Apr 18, 20 1:12 pm |
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I find it mind boggling that in the era of big data, we are still flying blind. What a colossal failure. My cell phone can listen to me talk about stuff and show me margin ads in an hour.
Germany took an idea for random testing of a large population from idea to action in a few weeks.
We’ve got a test with a one in three chance of a false negative, and we are rationing them out to only the sickest people. Our statistical modeling is non existent.
We might as well start a betting pool. Like how many jelly beans in the big jar are green, yellow, or red.
Am I the only one who wonders why the boat ramps and marina and walking path are open, but we can’t access thirty acres of sandbar? And let’s not get started on golf, we covered that issue last week.
I’m lucky enough to still be working. On our projects, we’ve implemented new protocols. Wiping down tools, the six foot rule, and everybody who pushes a mouse around works from home. More masks are in use. We talk about how we’re going to do the work safely in our pre task meetings. It’s been six weeks now, and it’s just the new normal.
I get that we don’t want the out of town folks traveling here. I miss seeing folks. I look forward to the kiters returning each year. For the next month, I’m afraid they might have to stay home. It’s still early season. The last couple weeks of glorious weather was unusual. Maybe we can throw a Memorial Day reunion party for the record book.
Couldn’t we try it and see what happens? Park a few spaces apart. Or park at the spit. Walk it out to the sandbar, and keep your distance. Keep the grass area closed. Don’t hang out fondling each other’s foils.
Get out and do your thing, then head on home.
I’m putting on my flame proof wetsuit, tell me what ya think.
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Pull the cork. |
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windfun7
Since 23 Aug 2015
40 Posts
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| Sat Apr 18, 20 3:03 pm |
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Compare the above pic with the one on google which makes it seem more crowded. I would posit that the people in groups came to the beach together and probably live together (a.k.a. family).
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jackbeach.jpg |
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Nak
Since 19 May 2005
4297 Posts
Camas
Site Lackey
CGKA Member
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| Sat Apr 18, 20 3:50 pm |
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| ay wrote: |
There is clearly a political divide in managing the pandemic and this is the issue at hand. |
I absolutely agree with you. Politicians on BOTH sides are politicizing this rather than addressing the issue as best as possible. My point is that WE don't have to politicize it. WE are a group that should know that both our fellow Democrat kiters and our fellow Republican kiters are great people who have ALWAYS pulled together for the common good. The fact that both groups disagree on how to address this issue shows that both groups have something to learn from the other. That's how the truth is always arrived at. By listening to and discussing with those that disagree with us. We learn nearly nothing from those we agree with. Don't assume Republicans want to trade lives for the economy; understand they think the two are strongly related. Don't think the Democrats don't care about the lives lost due to failure of the economy, many of them don't see the linkage.
By talking together, perhaps we can influence events positively. This is a world wide issue that can be affected by the little guy, here and now. Control of whether or not the economy collapses is held at the state and local level. By listening to each other, just maybe we can do a better job than the politicians who only really care about whether or not they get re-elected. (Both parties.) This is not the time to support someone just because they are in the right party or to slam someone because they are in the wrong party. This is the time to be citizens of the world and force our local politicians to do the right thing. This is not about Trump. He has no control here. This is about you and I influencing Kate Brown and Jay Inslee. We can whine about Trump. So what? Do you think he cares or that it will have any impact whatsoever? Lets learn from each other and try and influence events we can control.
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