registered
Since 12 Jul 2005
1319 Posts
tsunami
Sandbagger
Wed Feb 18, 09 7:23 am
Who ever submitted this article to eugenes register guard is a total tool...
There is no love for mechanical devices in the wilderness from Eugene ... that kind of publicity will surely get more letters sent in opposition to access. I doubt it was pulled from the Ass. Press this far out from the event.
If the Earth Liberation Front burns down any kite companies headquarters then we will see where this TIM CARLSON PUBLICITY has got anyone or HIS spot
Maybe send the articles to the east coast not Eugene.
pjc
Since 06 Mar 2005
649 Posts
Addicted
Wed Feb 18, 09 4:44 pm
easy regi - it was in some sort of special feature that runs only on Tues. Seeing as the first article was only a few weeks ago, it seems entirely possible that the RG was just scraping around for a filler and reprinted something "outdoorsy".
It sounds like the Bend kite crew has learned their lesson about keeping stuff on the down-low.
At any rate, the regulation specifically states that sailing is prohibited. It's hard to see how kiting will be allowed re:less of the public's feedback.
kyle.vh
Since 11 Jul 2007
713 Posts
city of angels
Addicted
Wed Feb 18, 09 4:52 pm
yeah, that sailing clause is pretty ominous. however, it's not clear is that's law, or a FS interpretation of the law.
I have a call this week with Jim Hasenauer this week, to talk about his efforts at legalizing mountain biking within the wilderness. I'm gonna try to find out what legal stance they took. if anyone has any suggestions for questions to ask him, let me know.
kitezilla
Since 22 Jun 2006
453 Posts
gorge
Obsessed
Wed Feb 18, 09 9:22 pm
mit_noslrac wrote:
Aaron Sales is editing the petition wording and will send out the petition link for everyone to sign when it is complete and approved.
Had a long conversation with the Forest Service yesterday after they received our letter of concern. Chris Sabo said he did receive it and is sending it up the chain of command. He said that this is a national issue not local and they are making the decision clear up in Washington D.C. He said it will be a year or so before he will start issuing tickets or that it becomes officially illegal. There will be a certain amount of time for public comment.
Below is what the reporter from the Oregonian showed me that he got from Chris Sabo from the Forest Service. Except the one he showed me was edited to say no snowkites .
3. Mechanical Transport. Any contrivance for moving people or material in or over land, water, or air, having moving parts, that provides a mechanical advantage to the user, and that is powered by a living or nonliving power source. This includes, but is not limited to, sailboats, hang gliders, parachutes, bicycles, game carriers, carts, and wagons. It does not include wheelchairs when used as necessary medical appliances. It also does not include skis, snowshoes, rafts, canoes, sleds, travois, or similar primitive devices without moving parts.
Wow,
You have done a great job of researching this issue and putting things in motion. You inspired me to do some research, that may help to clarify aspects of this issue for those members, like myself, who have only a sketchy picture of how this issue fits into the broader scheme of our government.
No doubt, the Forest Service has requested that our petition be submitted, through “proper channels” at the lowest level of government, from where it will then, work its way up the chain, from one office to the next, until it reaches the office of the Chief of the Forest Service, where it may exert an effect.
Hypothetically speaking, if we thought that we had an advocate in the President, or some Senators, then, our petition could be submitted, not at the lowest level of the bureaucracy, but at the highest level of government and it would then work its way down to the office of the Chief of the Forest Service. I would guess that this route would be faster and more effective, in achieving a change in the rules.
Still hypothetically speaking, the following scenario shows where the office of the Chief of the Forest Service is located, viewed from the top down in the chain of governmental authority.
Let’s say that the petition was submitted directly to President Obama. He would then converse with The Secretary of the Department of Agriculture, (Thomas J. Vilsack), who then, would pass the word down to the Under Secretary for Natural Resources and Environment in the Department of Agriculture, who would in turn, pass the word down to the Chief of the Forest Service. So far, all this would occur in Washington, D.C. This is because broad policy for all three branches of the Forest Service is formulated at the national headquarters for the Forest Service, which is located in Washington, D.C., and is often referred to as the WO (Washington Office)… this is where a change in a document (The Forest Service Manual (FSM) which codifies the agency's policy, practice, and procedures ) would be required. It seems, as has been previously stated in this thread, that the required change would have to be in the definition of “mechanical transport” in the following section of the FSM: 2320.5, section 3, which reads: ‘Mechanical Transport. Any contrivance for moving people or material in or over land, water, or air, having moving parts, that provides a mechanical advantage to the user, and that is powered by a living or nonliving power source. This includes, but is not limited to, sailboats, hang gliders, parachutes, bicycles, game carriers, carts, and wagons. It does not include wheelchairs when used as necessary medical appliances. It also does not include skis, snowshoes, rafts, canoes, sleds, travois, or similar primitive devices without moving parts.’
I think that the change that would be most effective would be to have “kites” listed right after “skis”, based on the claim that “kites“ are “primitive devices“.
I have not been able to locate a good definition of “primitive device”, which would be an important first step in the research phase for building a case for kites as primitive devices. An Anthropologist or Archaeologist could be consulted for sources of information on the use of kites or kite-like devices, by primitive people. Of course the word “primitive” could be a problem in making this sort of argument, since “primitive” can very well mean “simple” in the sense of “uncomplicated”; or it can mean “primitive’ in the sense of an object used by primitive human beings. The “moving parts” section presents a similar difficulty.
Anyway, it seems like any form of protest (petition or otherwise) would be futile, if the protest was aimed at any level of government, which was lower on the chain of authority, than the Chief of the Forest Service. No one lower in the bureaucracy would have the ability to change or overrule the definition of “mechanical device”.
Sorry about the long post. Hope it stimulates some helpful ideas.
kyle.vh
Since 11 Jul 2007
713 Posts
city of angels
Addicted
Thu Feb 19, 09 10:39 am
kitezilla- thanks for your thoughts.
I just had a really productive conversation with Jim Hausenauer.
He was a mountain biker in 1983, and legally biked in the wilderness before it was ruled illegal (m. biking was 'invented' in '79). We are in a very similar position that he was in.
We've got lots we an learn from him. He helped start: http://www.imba.com/.
The good news:
Loosing kiting in Wilderness does not mean that its lost in USFS, National Parks, and BLM land. However, it is put at risk.
He recommends forming a National organization with local chapters. This is what mountain bikers and rock climbers (the Access Fund) have done. Rock climbers have been very successful, even with their SLCD-mechanisms. Mountain bikers have been less successful in wilderness, but very successful in NPs, USFS, and BLM land.
Anyway, I'm wondering if there is a national snowkiting org, I can't find a website.
We need to ban together and build memberships with local chapters, and a good rapport with local officials. Thankfully, due to lots of hard work by many people, this frame work largely exists. We need to have this hierarchy so that Federal officials have 'someone' to bring to the table, otherwise we will be ignored.
He also mentioned that they are primarily funded by the industry and member donations. I have a feeling that we'd get lots of support from the industry.
He also pointed to some legal literature that we can go through. And he mentioned that going to court is risky, because one single loss will set a dangerous precedent.
I suggest starting a national organization whose goal is to increase and protect safe, responsible snowkiting access--and NO other goals (except maybe public education and general advocacy). Needs to be non-profit obviously. This national hierarchy with local chapters is vital, because we all need to be working with each individual BLM, NP, USFS tract of land because EACH has a separate manual, written by the local Administration. All local administrations have the legal ability to manage with a high degree of autonomy. We need to show to each of those administrations that kiting is safe and has a history of access. We need to get snowkiting as an approved form of recreation into each manual. This will be easy in some places and more difficult. It represents a decade of work, and it will never stop. We need to get started right now.
I am happy to start a website with slick software to accept donations and build a meaningful membership database. But I need help getting the URL (i don't want to decide on my own).
Matt and Tim of BKC, can we get you two, and me, and Aaron Sales in the same room or on a conference call soon? I hope this is helpful and I'm not stepping on toes.
303-929.9513. Matt you have my # and email address. Let's set something up.
andrewbanandrew
Since 15 Jun 2009
7 Posts
Kook
Thu Jun 18, 09 9:20 pm
You talkin something like the Access Fund but for kiting? Might as well expand it to water as well...
stevegriffith22
Since 14 May 2006
434 Posts
Obsessed
Fri Jun 19, 09 9:12 am
I may know someone that can help on the whole issue. Let me send a email.
KOF
Since 30 Mar 2011
51 Posts
Seattle
Mon Sep 17, 18 9:47 pm
I want to revisit this topic as mountain biking which was banned in wilderness areas is making a comeback in some areas as the science has pointed out that bikers are no more damaging to trails than people hiking. As snowkiting leaves no trace the same legal argument could be made. Cross-country skis also provide mechanical advantage but are allowed. Has anyone in the Bend area brought this up with the rangers there?
bfar
Since 03 Oct 2006
25 Posts
HR
Tue Sep 18, 18 10:27 pm
I've been sledding and skiing up there the last several years; there's a ton of sledders and bc skiers/sb up there these days. I'm taking a kite next time!
caps
Since 23 Dec 2010
347 Posts
Obsessed
Wed Sep 19, 18 8:27 am
You'd be battling all the old biases and misunderstandings of our sport. It would take someone with some serious gumption to get it done. You'd definitely get my support, and many others who would like to get out there...legally.
KOF
Since 30 Mar 2011
51 Posts
Seattle
Wed Sep 19, 18 5:21 pm
I think it’s worth getting a ticket and fighting it in court.
Pepi
Since 16 Jun 2006
1831 Posts
Pure Stoke Sports
Shop Owner
I think it’s worth getting a ticket and fighting it in court.
Be diligent and do your homework regarding both Fed Laws and local history in Bend (as to how it all started as a result of circumstances that occurred between Bend Kiters and the Forest Service).
Would be nice to see some changes made, as those same rules block us from officially/legally snowkiting on Mt Hood.
Historically snowkiting on Hood was given a blind-eye by the authorities due to an unofficial understanding between the T-line Ski Patrol and the local snowkite community.
As long as snowkiting was done far enough away from resort boundary lines (ie 50-100yrds from actual boundaries)and we did not cause any distractions, the ski patrol would not do anything. If we flew too close to a boundary area, they would come over and ask us to move further away (they were always polite and cordial about this).
Those privileges were lost when too many kiters began to not respect these unofficial rules. Ultimately it all came down to one weekend of full scale Caddyshack user abuse involving kiters riding within resort boundaries, launching kites from the parking lot, kiting near the Palmer ski lift, and most negative of all, verbally abusing the resort director in a public setting.
We met with the Director of Ski Patrol after that weekend and he was open to still allowing kiting, but Management and the Owners had put their foot down, making immediate changes to their resort rules and had them posted online, on signage and in conjunction with the Forest Service's rules indicating no snowkiting allowed anywhere on Mt Hood.
So as to not take this story too far off of your post and the point of your interest in seeking some change. We too, up north of you, would like to see some changes, so if you can do anything to change the perspective the Forest Service has on snowkiting it might bode well for us up here as well. _________________ Pure Stoke Sports
Hood River, OR
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Hood-River-OR/2nd-Wind-Sports/35891485558?ref=mf www.Purestokesports.com
registered
Since 12 Jul 2005
1319 Posts
tsunami
Sandbagger
Fri Sep 21, 18 10:04 am
The stoke of snow kiting in Oregon is best kept on the DL.
The best advice I can give is drive to Utah and watch the weather for a local attack on places and call your friends ,no digital media shout out and call for attention. Last edited by registered on Fri Sep 21, 18 2:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
Sasquatch
Since 09 Mar 2005
2088 Posts
PNW
Bigfoot
Fri Sep 21, 18 1:29 pm
registered wrote:
The stoke of snow kiting in Oregon is best kept on the DL.
. . .
The stoke of snow kiting in Oregon is best kept on the DL.
The best advice I can give is drive to Utah and watch the weather for a local attack on places and call your friends ,no digital media shut out and call for attention.
undertow
Since 15 Feb 2008
371 Posts
BeaversBurg
Obsessed
Wed Sep 26, 18 1:26 pm
It would be better to drive to Bend and get skunked, than to drive to Utah or Idaho and get skunked. Bend will definitely have better beer.
Lets get on the "Dark Web" for some Bend Snowkite OSR's
Jbruck
Since 17 Jun 2016
43 Posts
Eugene, OR
Thu Sep 27, 18 8:13 am
Given the desire to keep Oregon snowkiting on the DL, what's the best way for a recent Oregon transplant to learn how and where to go if they're interested?
I ran a snowkiting-specific school for a few years before moving to Oregon. Have been loving the soft water riding on the coast but hope to get back on the snow if I can figure out where the good spots are. I also think that kiting solo is generally a bad idea for safety reasons, so if I can tag along with you even better! I live in Eugene, so somewhere closer than St. Helens would be ideal. I don't own a sled but am experienced with backcountry travel on skis. Any and all recommendations appreciated!
Feel free to PM me if that helps keep it on the DL
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