previous topic :: next topic |
Author |
Message |
voy-tech
Since 08 Apr 2014
372 Posts
Seattle
Obsessed
CGKA Member
|
Thu Aug 25, 16 9:42 am |
|
|
eabmoto wrote: | Getting rid of the CL is only an improvement if you get rid of the 6-8" it takes up, Cabrihna didn't do that. |
I wonder if it's not simply a decision based on ergonomics, it may very well be that the first fireball design was much shorter but the test riders felt it was not comfortable to ride because your hands would be too close to your body and you'd end up straining your muscle too much.
_________________ My pictures of the beautiful PNW
http://behindtheviewfinder.com |
|
|
eabmoto
Since 10 May 2012
109 Posts
seattle
Stoked
|
Thu Aug 25, 16 10:12 am |
|
|
Adjust the length of whatever you connect to. BRM did it right... a while ago. Then the user can decide. Short arms can benefit greatly by bringing the bar closer.
|
|
|
ldhr
Since 21 Jul 2009
1474 Posts
Hood River
XTreme Poster
|
Thu Aug 25, 16 10:33 am |
|
|
eabmoto wrote: | Adjust the length of whatever you connect to. BRM did it right... a while ago. Then the user can decide. Short arms can benefit greatly by bringing the bar closer. |
The click bar comes with with multiple pigtails to adjust the length of the outside lines - you can use the medium or longest pigtail if you have really short arms.
Most kites come with multiple knots on the pigtails to accommodate arm length.
I don't see a scenario where you would want the bar less than 8 inches from your body.... even for a person with short arms that would be awkward to fully sheet in.
|
|
|
eabmoto
Since 10 May 2012
109 Posts
seattle
Stoked
|
Thu Aug 25, 16 10:56 am |
|
|
Making your back lines longer then your front lines takes away a bunch of potential power that you might want from your kite. I'd much rather keep the full range of my kite at all times. Yes bringing the fully sheeted in position of your bar too far could be awkward but most people would benefit from the ability to get it closer, mostly because of the de-power (sheeting out) that would then be accessible. Short arms and long.
|
|
|
Sella
Since 21 Apr 2007
1794 Posts
Doin' The Dalles
FLY'IN HIGH PIE GUY
|
Thu Aug 25, 16 11:07 am |
|
|
I love innovation but what I cannot get my head around with the click bar is the end benefit?? I'm definitely going to demo one as I consider myself your typical gorge kiter: Old white guy with average board skills but above average kite skills, due to constantly changing wind. I ride with 40 other guys/gals daily and our claim to fame is we suck.....but we can blindly thread the needle with our kites all day long in gusty conditions and still ride smoothly. My hands constantly micro tune the kite to gain maximum efficiency as everything else ( feet, board, arms, wrists, hips) depends on the feel of the kite I'm receiving through my fingers. The timing is very precise and when done correctly and preemptively when you're "reading" the wave/swell/chop ahead you can make anything smooth. However, it happens very fast and you're constantly tweaking the kite to stay in the power range so power delivery becomes synced with your board. For me, the Click Bar concept hits the bullseye of the most important feedback I receive while kiting; back line tension, via the throw of the bar. A kiters holy grail of control. (My front line trim is set and forget)
If a Click Bar is sheeted in......you push your depower button to free ride the wave the kite dumps power but when you do sheet out does all the power dump out the back giving you sloppy rear lines? The bar seems like it would create broader peaks and valleys of power delivery and since my right hand is usually behind me when I ride I would have to reach up and wind the rear lines in to gain that powered trim back when I could have just easily sheeted in my bar with my left hand as I exit the wave. I just don't see how taking your right hand to wind tensioned, or loose, rear lines back into your bar is going to be a smooth or enjoyable experience on the water when the end benefit is a few inches of sheeting in and out?
North firmly believes in the bar while their marketing is pushing the hype aggressively. North pro rider quotes state it's like riding a bike, shifting gears, playing a video game etc and they cannot imagine riding without it. I truly hope it's revolutionary for simpler gust control and not gimmicky. Time will tell if their game changing words are true or they are just bowing down to the man to pay for the 5 years of R&D.
|
|
|
user124
Since 02 Aug 2012
390 Posts
Portland
Obsessed
|
Thu Aug 25, 16 11:16 am |
|
|
eabmoto wrote: | Making your back lines longer then your front lines takes away a bunch of potential power that you might want from your kite. I'd much rather keep the full range of my kite at all times. Yes bringing the fully sheeted in position of your bar too far could be awkward but most people would benefit from the ability to get it closer, mostly because of the de-power (sheeting out) that would then be accessible. Short arms and long. |
This makes a lot of sense. The main reason trim my front lines is if it gets to the point where I can't comfortably reach the bar. Otherwise I can just adjust the bar position on the fly to get the same effect. If I could get rid of 6 inches of length by having no chicken loop, hook etc, I would guess my need trim would be rare. Basically trim becomes necessary only for comfort, or for unhooking.
|
|
|
knotwindy
Since 25 Sep 2011
598 Posts
Addicted
|
Thu Aug 25, 16 12:12 pm |
|
|
ldhr wrote: | eabmoto wrote: | Adjust the length of whatever you connect to. BRM did it right... a while ago. Then the user can decide. Short arms can benefit greatly by bringing the bar closer. |
The click bar comes with with multiple pigtails to adjust the length of the outside lines - you can use the medium or longest pigtail if you have really short arms.
Most kites come with multiple knots on the pigtails to accommodate arm length.
I don't see a scenario where you would want the bar less than 8 inches from your body.... even for a person with short arms that would be awkward to fully sheet in. |
I do, When riding waves or even river swell and you are a bit behind the peak or late coming in and you need that little bit of pop to get past the section when you are sheeted out, it is nice to be able to pull the bar all the way in for just a moment to give that short blast of power to help, you are actually over sheeting for a moment(I think) to clear the section and then back to arm out depower to ride again.
Don't want to ride for long with arms close but there is a definite benefit to it momentarily, imo.
|
|
|
snowycreek
Since 01 Dec 2009
38 Posts
Hood River
|
Thu Aug 25, 16 8:01 pm |
|
|
eabmoto clearly understands the relationship between available throw, line length and bar position. I ride with 38 inches of throw and require no trim. All of the depower available within the kite's range is well within arm's reach. Slack back lines are at around 28" and back-stall is close to the spreader bar. I just let go of my bar for max de-power
When we kite, we are constantly moving our bar in and out. This whole thing about trim to place your hand in this supposedly perfect position? What is it 12 inches from your belly button? Really, it does not matter to me if I have my hand 8 inches OR 18 inches from my body. And, before riding trimless, I was one of you who believed that I needed trim. With enough sheeting it is only a complexity that is not needed.
On the other hand, I know that some will never accept the trim free approach and to that I say, I like the rear line trim approach that North is bringing to the market. Too bad it cost three or four times what my bar does.
|
|
|
SpaceRacer
Since 04 Nov 2007
434 Posts
Obsessed
|
Fri Aug 26, 16 6:49 am |
|
|
I'm a North rider and I'm just excited about the option of filling the bar with peppercorns and taking it with me to dinner.
|
|
|
kitezilla
Since 22 Jun 2006
453 Posts
gorge
Obsessed
|
Fri Aug 26, 16 8:14 am |
|
|
Great comments on a very interesting subject. The use of "back-stall" and its inclusion in kite design is something to consider, along with all the other factors related to kiting.
Peppercorn option...
Airport Security Report: "When the robot pushed the button, it just went 'click' and some dark substance was expressed from the other end"
|
|
|
eric
Since 13 Jan 2006
1805 Posts
XTreme Poster
|
Fri Aug 26, 16 8:43 am |
|
|
<<I'm a North rider and I'm just excited about the option of filling the bar with peppercorns and taking it with me to dinner.>>
Made my day!
|
|
|
Matt V
Since 26 Oct 2014
462 Posts
Summer- OR Coast, Winter - My van near good snow
Explosive Diarrhea
|
Fri Aug 26, 16 12:10 pm |
|
|
I cannot use a “Long throw” depower line as some do. This is due my use of smaller kites and the downloop jibe that those smaller kites necessitate. When I need to “hands off quick spin” my bar to untwist lines, my kite is typically extremely low to the water. With my foot switch occurring as the board is at a 45° angle while banking out of the jibe, my bar is closer to my knees than my shoulders. If I had a longer bar throw than about 23”-26”, the bar would be out of reach for at that instant, no matter how long my arms were. Though there are many style/timing changes that would allow me to use a longer throw, I prefer the access to the “hands off quick spin” that can easily get 2-3 line twists out of my bar in an instant. So a conventional depower adjustment is what I need to ride the way I do.
Now on to backstall………. (good backstall to me is lots of backstall and easy recovery at any time of my choice from that backstall)
Backstall is something that has been out of reach or swept under the rug by easier and easier kites available for beginners to start out, and progress on. Many kites that have been designed to not backstall still retain some accessible backstall properties. And a few older derelict designs had catastrophic backstall which was nearly impossible to exploit to an advantage by even highly skilled riders.
If you started out on open cell foil kites (closed cell can have good backstall properties too), you may have had a kite that immediately indicated that the flow over the top of the canopy was detached. This is typically noticed by the kiter as a near sudden decrease in line tension (kite power). If not corrected by sheeting the bar out immediately, the kite will then begin to reverse in the window. On an open cell foil kite, the visiual indication of this is that the cells “loose air” and the bottom of the kite shows looseness in the fabric. I personally own a 3m 4line depower open cell foil kite that is of one of those derelict designs - AND IT IS THE BEST KITE EVER FOR TEACHING BACKSTALL!!!!!! – with regards to properties and how to exploit the backstall, along with how to avoid and or correct it.
Most riders that started after 2010 or who have never had open cell foil kite experience, are in the dark about how to sheet their kite properly for maximum power, drift, depower, stalled depower, and placement in the window. While this is too complicated a topic to be taught via a forum post, the following diagram shows how I prefer to set my trim on my depower throw at approximately 23” of total bar travel.
"H" = high wind
"M" = medium wind
"L" = light wind
Note: Kites stall off of apparent wind which can change with sailing angle and possible speed at a particular point in the windwindow.
|
|
BarThrow1.jpg |
_________________ MSN has temporarily removed commenting on our websites while we explore better ways for you to engage in discussion on the issues you care about. |
|
|
bigjohn
Since 13 Mar 2012
663 Posts
Addicted
|
Fri Aug 26, 16 12:55 pm |
|
|
Matt V wrote: | When I need to “hands off quick spin” my bar to untwist lines, my kite is typically extremely low to the water. With my foot switch occurring as the board is at a 45° angle while banking out of the jibe, my bar is closer to my knees than my shoulders. |
Matt, I'm not questioning your riding preference however I'm not sure I understand your point.
When looping the kite you must have tension on your bar (to create the loop), thus obviously the bar is within reach. After your kite comes out of the loop your kite is higher in the air than your bar... thus causing your bar to float down and within reach.
I happen to have long arms and ride big kites so perhaps I just do not fully understand the problem. However I do regularly downloop on jibes and spin the bar on the upstroke of the loop. I don't think I have ever experienced the issue you are describing of not being able to reach my bar.
I only bring this up because like others have mentioned I am not much of a fan of depowering a kite as I prefer a long throw instead.
In fact following NAK's post on DIY depower ropes I have made longer depower ropes... allowing for more range. I just added a super long one to my 12m but have yet to have a chance to ride it. Looking forward to see how it works.
_________________ Kiting starts at 40MPH |
|
|
eabmoto
Since 10 May 2012
109 Posts
seattle
Stoked
|
Fri Aug 26, 16 1:19 pm |
|
|
Hey Matt, this is Eric! Remember the Eric that kited with you during the best session of your life... and mine, last weekend?
|
|
|
eabmoto
Since 10 May 2012
109 Posts
seattle
Stoked
|
Fri Aug 26, 16 1:23 pm |
|
|
Oh yeah, my contention is that if your chicken loop was gone, or half the length that it is now, you'd be able to reach your bar after letting go for the spin... Maybe, maybe not.
|
|
|
Matt V
Since 26 Oct 2014
462 Posts
Summer- OR Coast, Winter - My van near good snow
Explosive Diarrhea
|
Fri Aug 26, 16 2:09 pm |
|
|
Stick figure theater!
Hope this diagram helps.
And I guess the point is that a long throw is not really necessary if you have a working trim adjustment to give you access to all of the spots labled on the diagram. If shorten the front lines via trim adjustment, then you could loose access to the backstall points on the bar. If you lengthen the front lines, then you loose access to some of the depower and the light wind backstall recovery points. And even with a long throw, if it is not balanced, you could have line lengths that do not allow access to the lower (backstall portions). This is easy to remedy via pigtails.
Given that I use a seat harness, having to hold the bar closer in down at my waist seems pretty uncomfortable. But I do not have experience with that enough to decide until I try it.
|
|
HarnessAngle.jpg |
_________________ MSN has temporarily removed commenting on our websites while we explore better ways for you to engage in discussion on the issues you care about. |
|
|
bigjohn
Since 13 Mar 2012
663 Posts
Addicted
|
Fri Aug 26, 16 3:04 pm |
|
|
Stick figures help... Thanks.
I think I understand your point better now. If I was to spin my bar that close to the water my kite would fall into the water (which is likely part of your point). The slack that occurs with a long throw would stall the kite enough to sink her into the drink while the bar was spinning.
As previously stated.. give and take... there is no single perfect solution for all situations.
On a completely side subject.
I find it easier to switch my feet when I have upward tension on my lines (thus no down force on the board). i.e. I want to be light on my board while switching my feet. Thus my jibe would take place after spinning the bar and upon edging the board back upwind.
_________________ Kiting starts at 40MPH |
|
|
|