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voy-tech
Since 08 Apr 2014
372 Posts
Seattle
Obsessed
CGKA Member
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Mon May 02, 16 8:00 am Compstick 23" vs 20" |
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Hi guys, I'm thinking about getting a wider bar for my 2014 12m Rally. But before I pull the trigger on the purchase I was wondering what's your experience with the wider bar (and longer lines). The 2014 Rally is not the fastest kite (especially at 12m+) and I'm afraid that with additional 4m of lines it would get even slower (and pull harder) and I'll end up riding it with the old 20" bar anyway. Anyone have any feedback on the topic? _________________ My pictures of the beautiful PNW
http://behindtheviewfinder.com |
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knotwindy
Since 25 Sep 2011
606 Posts
Addicted
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Mon May 02, 16 8:55 am |
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if you want to speed up the reaction of the kite why not go for the longer bar (23") but still use the same line length |
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voy-tech
Since 08 Apr 2014
372 Posts
Seattle
Obsessed
CGKA Member
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Mon May 02, 16 9:07 am |
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The problem is that Slingshot doesn't sell 23" with 23m lines as far as I know, the only option is 20"x23m or 23"x27m :/ _________________ My pictures of the beautiful PNW
http://behindtheviewfinder.com |
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bigjohn
Since 13 Mar 2012
663 Posts
Addicted
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Jonpnw
Since 22 Jul 2010
1327 Posts
Pacific Northwest
XTreme Poster
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Mon May 02, 16 10:07 am Airtime |
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Airtime can shorten lines _________________ Slingshot | Ride Engine |Try before you buy | PM me
Join the Columbia Gorge Water Sports Association. http://gorgewindsurfing.org/ |
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voy-tech
Since 08 Apr 2014
372 Posts
Seattle
Obsessed
CGKA Member
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Mon May 02, 16 10:14 am |
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I need a new bar (and want to get the Sentinel version) so I'll need to spend ~$500. I don't want to add additional $200 for lines. But I like the idea of buying a 23" Compstick base. I think I'll get the new 20" Sentinel and later will buy the 23" base and convert my older 20" to the wider version while I'll keep mostly using the new Sentinel. Thanks for the feedback. _________________ My pictures of the beautiful PNW
http://behindtheviewfinder.com |
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Da Yoda
Since 12 Mar 2009
79 Posts
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Mon May 02, 16 2:26 pm |
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voy-tech wrote: | But I like the idea of buying a 23" Compstick base. |
Another option to consider is Switch's replacement bar for only $53.
It can be adjusted to 22", so it's close.
http://switchkites.com/barincludingfloatsv3.html |
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The minnow
Since 26 Jan 2009
395 Posts
argentina
Obsessed
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Tue May 03, 16 2:43 am line extension |
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Slingshot does sale line extensions; Personally the sentinal bar has no stopper;
.......... No stopper means no resting the bar against it; no stopper means lots of wasted energy;
... I put 27m on a 20' bar worked fine 17m kite;
I can not see kite speed being a problem unless you do looping transitions every turn; and if your crying about price you must be new to the sport;
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Try kiteboarding as a job 4 hours a day every day i know from experience you will not last ; A stopper is fundimental;
......... Just buy a new depower rope and chicken loop and line extensions you will be fine;
....... A new bar is always nice and putting on or taking off line extensions is a pain;
When i complain i hear the same response just do a custom bar and forget about it;
....>> I want a bar combination i like from the factory?
When you get used to sentinal rotor on the chicken its hard to go back ;
>>>>>>>> I see slingshot sales upgrade kits thats awsome so we can modifi bars the way we like; just need a stopper ; thing is over the bar depower ??? is bulky;
Any way depower is almost useless just change kite size; the bar has so much depower already _________________ -know as the SECRET AGENT- |
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voy-tech
Since 08 Apr 2014
372 Posts
Seattle
Obsessed
CGKA Member
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Tue May 03, 16 11:50 am Re: line extension |
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The minnow wrote: | Slingshot does sale line extensions; Personally the sentinal bar has no stopper;
.......... No stopper means no resting the bar against it; no stopper means lots of wasted energy;
... I put 27m on a 20' bar worked fine 17m kite;
I can not see kite speed being a problem unless you do looping transitions every turn; and if your crying about price you must be new to the sport;
...........
Try kiteboarding as a job 4 hours a day every day i know from experience you will not last ; A stopper is fundimental;
......... Just buy a new depower rope and chicken loop and line extensions you will be fine;
....... A new bar is always nice and putting on or taking off line extensions is a pain;
When i complain i hear the same response just do a custom bar and forget about it;
....>> I want a bar combination i like from the factory?
When you get used to sentinal rotor on the chicken its hard to go back ;
>>>>>>>> I see slingshot sales upgrade kits thats awsome so we can modifi bars the way we like; just need a stopper ; thing is over the bar depower ??? is bulky;
Any way depower is almost useless just change kite size; the bar has so much depower already |
A couple of notes:
- Stopper is not that important to me, as I unfortunately don't kite that much. Plus based on the videos of the Sentinel looks like the movable cleat can act like a stopper ball
- New depower and lines is not the solution as I need an additional 20" or 23" bar (so that my wife can also kite)
- I like the above the bar depower - it takes less force to pull the depower line in a strong gust or when I'm riding slightly overpowered but I'm having too much fun to go back to shore and change kites (and is very important for my wife since she basically cannot depower the kite while riding)
- I'm looking at 23" bar (and above the bar depower) because every season I develop nerve pain about half way through the season due to ulnar nerve entrapment - so less force used to steer the kite and control depower is better for me
- I'm well aware that kitesurfing is expensive - I just don't see a point in throwing out money (like f.e. buying a new bar set and than adding $250 for additional lines)
_________________ My pictures of the beautiful PNW
http://behindtheviewfinder.com Last edited by voy-tech on Tue May 03, 16 3:28 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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bigjohn
Since 13 Mar 2012
663 Posts
Addicted
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Tue May 03, 16 1:30 pm |
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A little off subject...
Many people who ride with slingshot below the bar depower system (Guardian) struggle with pulling in the depower line when they are overpowered.
I utilize a technique that makes this much easier.
1) Pull your bar in completely (or as far as you can) with both hands. This will power up your kite (may even lift you off the water if you are massive overpowered).
2) Release one hand (holding your bar powered up with the other hand at the center of your bar)
3) Using your free hand simultaneously pull in your depower line while releasing your bar pressure.
You will find your depower line pulls out easily as you are releasing your bar pressure with the other hand. _________________ Kiting starts at 40MPH |
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Mrlaroo
Since 02 Jan 2007
181 Posts
Bend
Stoked
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Tue May 03, 16 2:43 pm |
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I agree with bigjohn, I had spent many years on above the bar trim and switched to the compstick below the bar and not a fan. I never have had an issue with depowering with this bar but clearly easier when it is above the bar. Just my opinion... |
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Nak
Since 19 May 2005
4233 Posts
Camas
Site Lackey
CGKA Member
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Tue May 03, 16 7:51 pm Re: line extension |
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voy-tech wrote: | I'm looking at 23" bar (and above the bar depower) because every season I develop nerve pain about half way through the season due to ulnar nerve entrapment - so less force used to steer the kite and control depower is better for me |
Steering effort is higher with a 23 inch bar unless you put your hands all the way out to the outside of the bar. (Leverage is decreased as the bar gets longer and the steering lines are farther from your hand.) The only reason to go with a longer bar is if total bar motion is excessive to get the kite to turn. My 2012 12m rally turns great with a 20 inch bar. 23 works, but a 20 if more fun with it. My 17m turbine really is much, much better with a 23 inch bar over a 20. Longer lines slow the kite down, increase steering effort--because you need to apply steering input longer--and increase power due to longer kite arcs. The increased steering effort may be negligible to un-noticeable to a completely healthy individual, but will be noticeable to those that have health issues sensitive to steering effort.
Also, you can always get a 17" bar & 20m lines, get some line extensions and a 20 0r 23 inch bare bar to swap all the lines over to... |
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Jonpnw
Since 22 Jul 2010
1327 Posts
Pacific Northwest
XTreme Poster
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voy-tech
Since 08 Apr 2014
372 Posts
Seattle
Obsessed
CGKA Member
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Wed May 04, 16 8:52 am Re: line extension |
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Nak wrote: | voy-tech wrote: | I'm looking at 23" bar (and above the bar depower) because every season I develop nerve pain about half way through the season due to ulnar nerve entrapment - so less force used to steer the kite and control depower is better for me |
Steering effort is higher with a 23 inch bar unless you put your hands all the way out to the outside of the bar. (Leverage is decreased as the bar gets longer and the steering lines are farther from your hand.) The only reason to go with a longer bar is if total bar motion is excessive to get the kite to turn. My 2012 12m rally turns great with a 20 inch bar. 23 works, but a 20 if more fun with it. My 17m turbine really is much, much better with a 23 inch bar over a 20. Longer lines slow the kite down, increase steering effort--because you need to apply steering input longer--and increase power due to longer kite arcs. The increased steering effort may be negligible to un-noticeable to a completely healthy individual, but will be noticeable to those that have health issues sensitive to steering effort.
Also, you can always get a 17" bar & 20m lines, get some line extensions and a 20 0r 23 inch bare bar to swap all the lines over to... |
Thanks - that's what I do when the pain kicks in I start to move my hands to the outside of the bar, however I'm working with a trainer to better prepare for the season and hopefully reduce the effects of the nerve pain. After all the feedback I'm leaning towards the 20" sentinel option, I already have an older 20" and a 17", but I need another 20" so that both me and my wife can kite together. _________________ My pictures of the beautiful PNW
http://behindtheviewfinder.com |
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Gman
Since 11 Feb 2006
4907 Posts
Portland
Unstrapped
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Wed May 04, 16 9:31 am |
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Some good advice here
I like longer lines when kiting/snow kiting around obstacles/trees - 20" by 23m
I run that on 10m all the way down to 4.5m - prefer 17" x 20m if the area is all open
I rarely adjust sheeting - set it 3" in and forget it (will sail til I need to come in and downsize)
Can't say I ever use the stopper ball - probably cause we kite in gusty/holey spots and if it's fan like I'm so stoked don't seem to notice the effort _________________ Go Deep!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eu2pBpQolKE |
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Nak
Since 19 May 2005
4233 Posts
Camas
Site Lackey
CGKA Member
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Wed May 04, 16 10:33 am |
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Gman wrote: |
I like longer lines when kiting/snow kiting around obstacles/trees - 20" by 23mt |
Absolutely! I can think of one launch in particular where I have to put 3m extensions on my 20m lines...
For travel with just one bar that will work with my turbine on down, I'm putting together a 23" bar with 20m lines and carrying 3m and 7m extensions. I tried my turbine yesterday with a 20" bar and it was just not enough. It worked, but made it just too slow. Turbines are fast for their size, but they are still a 17m. |
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Nak
Since 19 May 2005
4233 Posts
Camas
Site Lackey
CGKA Member
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Wed May 04, 16 10:48 am Re: line extension |
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voy-tech wrote: | After all the feedback I'm leaning towards the 20" sentinel option |
It's nice to have the option between the two, above and below the bar. One thing to consider, is technique. The natural thing to do when pulling trim on a below the bar system is to pull perpendicular to the lines, because it's so close to pull towards yourself/parallel to the lines. But if you look at the cleat, you'll notice that it's designed to pull straight back. That feels awkward, but the effort is much, much less. It can help to throw on a larger chicken loop to move the cleat a little further from you. Even a little angle when you pull can increase the effort drastically.
A custom depower rope helps a lot too. I take 1/8" amsteel and double it up inside itself to get 1/4" amsteel. The doubled up line holds a round shape and doesn't jam inside the cleat so hard. You'll notice immediately how much easier it is to disengage the cleat. As a side benefit the doubled up line lasts far longer than the single line. I'm still using my bars from 2010 with the same depower ropes. It seems that since the amsteel maintains more of a round shape, it doesn't abrade as easily. The only negative is that it takes more attention to get it to catch in the cleat when adjusting trim. |
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