A kite and Glider are not even close to each other and should never be viewed as such.
with a kite there is no redundancy whatsoever at this point.
A line snaps on a glider theres a hundered more where that came from.
A line snaps on a kite at least with a tube you won't destroy the kite the foil will explode with the increase of the load shifting elsewhere doesn't matter you won't be around to care anyway you'll be dead or in a coma.
Gliders have reserve chutes kites do not.
Gliders have risers kites have a puny spectra line with pulleys again with 4 lines below
Gliders have speed bars that pull on one part of the bridle and don't interfere with any part of the function of a wing other then to go faster.
Kites have bars that break making steering impossible a glider that breaks its steering still has the D function in the back to safely get down in an emergency. if you fail doing that the reserve is a throw away.
New kite lines are not all that i'm seeing a new development over at kookforum suggesting some lines can be spliced at the factory and can't be seen with the naked eye. sounds dangerous to me on a brand new lineset and brand new kite.
The only way to make it safer is to back it up to the hilt like you guys are doing 2 linesets double chicken loops double hooks redundancy is the key for safety.
In the end I doubt there is a sucidal maniac that would pick up a kite and go for a 100 ft glide and those of us with experience would need a diaper as you would call it space racer. So i'm not to worried about people wrecking the sport with this kinda behavior
half the kite community doesn't know what ROTOR is hehehe
knewschool
Since 23 Dec 2010
61 Posts
Wyoming
Mon Jan 16, 12 9:24 pm
Quote:
I was not dissing anyone's skills or abilities but simply questioning, no matter how much knowledge and skill one has, if kiteboarding kites are built for these applications?
No problem Spaceracer, I appreciate the perspective, and perhaps there's some misunderstanding in the kind of gliding we do.
My friends and I can go snowkiting in perfect soaring conditions on a nice mountain side and never get more than 20 feet off. It is tempting to go big sometimes when the conditions are so perfect, or it's the easiest way down avoiding some knarly Icy death slope. Only a couple times have I ever been very high and it's not a normal practice. You'll see Pascal in that one picture where he is pretty high. He's high like that for just a moment as he sets up to make a big turn across the ridge. You can loose alot of altitude when you make a full turn to cross back and it's nice to give yourself a little room.
There's lots of practices we employ that make it safe as possible. The slope for example can be as ideal as possible. At Bondurant once Wayne had an outside line break while about 40'up, but the hill was so steep and had such good snow that he was not hurt landing on the soft transition. Finding the right slopes are key to keeping it as safe as possible. We always back up harness, hooks, and chickenloop redundant systems of our own on new equipement.
Quote:
A kite and Glider are not even close to each other and should never be viewed as such.
Here Craz, I think we may just have a dissagreement on deffinition since I do think a kite is a tool for gliding. I see everyone doing it and would think even you have boosted up into the air and used the "gliderness" of the kite to come down nice and soft. I don't think everyone should do it, nor do I think it will ever leave the sport of kiting. All I hope is that discussions like this lead to a better understanding, and perhaps even save someones life when they find themselves 200 feet up from a thermal and compose themselves to glide to a safe landing.
SpaceRacer
Since 04 Nov 2007
434 Posts
Obsessed
Tue Jan 17, 12 8:40 am
Knewschool, I appreciate your cool and unemotional posts regarding this topic. Although it was not my intent, I could see that this could easily become a heated discussion. It sounds like you guys are doing all you can to take precautions while pioneering a new frontier. An outside line snapping?? Yikes! There you go. You do bring up a really good point about learning and perhaps teaching others what should happen if they find themselves unintentionally lofted. This does happen from time to time and your knowledge could bring some real value to the safety aspect of this unplanned and horrifying event. It could save lives. Along those lines, are there posts that you guys are on that dispense some safety advice in an unintentional lofting? I wouldn't mind checking those out. Safe flight!
SR
J_Matic
Since 14 Oct 2011
158 Posts
InDaHo
Stoked
Tue Jan 17, 12 9:22 am
SpaceRacer wrote:
Knewschool, I appreciate your cool and unemotional posts regarding this topic. Safe flight!SR
What is the world coming to when respect & even admiration is used in a Forum debate--must be 2012 and the impending end of the world. Or maybe a new consciousness as the new agers would call it.
I miss the days of a good ole e-bitch slap after a verbal call-out. Grrrr!
JH Kiters--you guys could be on to something over there, the 1st Glide School in the West. Keep flying high, you guys are killing it!
forrest
Since 21 Jun 2005
4330 Posts
Hood River
Hick
Why not just double up all your lines and go for it?
quenyaistar
Since 21 Oct 2011
416 Posts
Cougar, WA
Obsessed
Tue Jan 17, 12 10:08 am
Talk to ozone get them to make a kite with double bridle and double the steering line attachments _________________ 1 OF 1
SpaceRacer
Since 04 Nov 2007
434 Posts
Obsessed
Tue Jan 17, 12 10:11 am
They already do. It's called a paraglider lol.
knewschool
Since 23 Dec 2010
61 Posts
Wyoming
Tue Jan 17, 12 11:23 pm
Quote:
This does happen from time to time and your knowledge could bring some real value to the safety aspect of this unplanned and horrifying event.
With an unintentional lofting my advice would be to fly straight into the wind with even bar pressure keeping the kite straight overhead. Maintain control and even barpressure as if you were riding along. I wouldn’t make any drastic moves like a loop or flying the kite down especially in the lift. Flying in a straight line will encourage flight away from the lift. I would stay calm and focus on orientation with the kite controls and wind direction. You want to fly the kite into the wind to slow your ground speed for a safer landing and less distance traveled.
Keep in mind the differences between a glide and a jump. On a jump once you lift into the air you start to drift downwind and as the airspeed decreases you’ll come down. In a glide you’ll actually penetrate into the wind gaining airspeed as you begin to travel the glide path down. Without experience it can be tricky to anticipate the glide path until you’re actually travelling it but being aware of the concept will give you an advantage.
Once out of the lift, you’ll start to glide down. With the altitude you attained from the loft and the glide path you’re traveling along you’ll need to find the largest and smoothest landing zone (water is ideal) that you can hit while ideally staying pointed into the wind. If you find that you’re going to overshoot that landing, slowly and evenly turn your kite away from the danger towards a better landing. Turing away from the target and then turning back may bleed off enough altitude to land you on the target.
There’s so many ways to land airs on a kite that I’m nervous to say one way is right. Basically you’ll need to understand that while on your glide path you were gaining a lot of airspeed and ground speed and it can be tricky to slow down. For beginners in this situation I’d think the safest way to land would be to keep checking over your shoulder and watch where you think you’re going to land. Keep checking your landing zone so you’re not surprised as you come in. You'll be flying backwards. Once you’re about 10 feet off just coming in I’d go from even bar pressure to full bar in and go from looking over your shoulder and check your landing, to twisting to face it just as you touch so that you can run or slide in feet first to absorb the landing.
Kiter’s with more experience may be comfortable with a powerful dive or loop right above the landing zone, but with the airspeed from a glide a loop straight off can be like a Lenten loop. This is why you’ll often see people swoop their kite from side to side very aggressively before they loop or down dive the kite for a landing. This “signing” of the kite like that usually results in some lift (similar to sending for a jump). Once you’ve slowed you’re airspeed from signing the kite you can then dive or loop for a landing without excess power.
Anyway, I'd be interested to know if this explanation is agreeable, and even makes sense.
Quote:
Along those lines, are there posts that you guys are on that dispense some safety advice in an unintentional lofting? I wouldn't mind checking those out.
I don't actually know of any sites like that and I'd be interested too. Some of the reason I'm on NWkite is because it seems like there's lots of experience here from kiters who kite nearly everyday. I have a feeling that most the forums on this topic are in French and we may be on our own.
knewschool
Since 23 Dec 2010
61 Posts
Wyoming
Tue Jan 17, 12 11:32 pm
Quote:
Why not just double up all your lines and go for it?
I could just double up lines, but the actual failures I've witnessed have been at the bar or valve so far. From Ozone at least, I have yet to see equipment failure of any sort on new kites with 300 (shot in the dark) or less hours on them that are inspected before use, so for now that's my system.
skikiteski
Since 26 Jun 2006
18 Posts
Jackson WY
Wed Jan 18, 12 12:27 pm
[url]http://vimeo.com/9445732
Well said Will. I agree that there is a lack of available information regarding what to do in a lofting or unintentionally large air situation. I think the best thing to do is keep the kite over head until you get close to the ground again.
And now, a nice crash to lighten up this suddenly very serious post. I think it is a bad idea to suddenly throw a kiteloop in to lift/rising air. This could happen. Two visits to the chiropractor and massage therapist instead of my usual one.
Cheers
skikiteski
Since 26 Jun 2006
18 Posts
Jackson WY
Wed Jan 18, 12 1:31 pm
My last post didn't go so I will try again. Sorry if it appears twice later.
Well said Will. I agree that there is a lack of available information regarding lofting or unintentionally large airs. I would say that not panicking and doing everything you can to keep your kite above your head until you get closer to the ground are the biggest goals.
And now a nice crash to lighten up this suddenly serious post. I would say it is a bad idea to throw a kiteloop into rising air/lift. This could happen:
Not to throw my hat towards or against gliding, but while we're on the topic of videos
That was my fault! I was jumping with a kite that had extremely worn leader lines. Over 200 sessions and I never looked for wear. That video was some of my first baby glides.
I have been a paraglider pilot since 1995 and kite gliding is inevitable for me. Gliding under a kite is not hard at all but should be taken in small steps. I used to get pretty high under a kite but now I try to stay very low for safety and the cool ground rush feeling. You can go through turbulence on a tube kite that would knock a foil or paraglider out of the air. Although we try to only glide with favorable conditions. Ozone's kite lines are the best they are not spliced. They are pre-stretched and tested. Yesterday I started doing some big wing overs under my kite that were insanely fun but after 4 or 5 I was building up to much energy and started thinking to myself I am stressing the system. But I can't stop thinking about it. If your going to be kiting in the mountains gliding is a necessary skill to have! It could save your life. Thanks for all the responses!!!! Wayne
Sol-flyer
Since 21 Mar 2006
1280 Posts
Dude, where's my Bus?
Otto Mann
Mon Jan 23, 12 7:48 am
Have a great time out there my fellow snowkiters! The jackson crew are super standup and with the snow forecast looking BOMBER! come out and get your seshon!! _________________ I stretch my wings and pull the strings
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