OT Question for you programmers.

Scribble · Since 18 Nov 2005 636 Posts NoPo Addicted

If I were to learn a programming language as a complete noob which one would you suggest? My only background is a Fortran class from forever ago and some simple Linux commands that I've probably forgotten.

I have a good friend using Python, and he taught himself pretty quickly and is making some good money at it. Anyway he is always looking for help now, and he wants me to learn. He suggested starting with either Ruby or Python, but he is also saying that there is some other good languages out there.

Thanks,
Andy

jdk · Since 21 Dec 2005 333 Posts Obsessed

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/630967/what-programming-language-is-in-the-highest-demand-in-the-market-place-right-now

on the Web front, there are probably more jobs doing .Net but they don't tend to pay as well Java

http://www.indeed.com/salary/Application-Developer.html

rich · Since 30 Nov 2005 306 Posts portland Obsessed

what type of work is it that you and your friend are trying to do?

arkay · Since 06 Jun 2008 192 Posts Manzo/Hillsburrito Stoked

Agree with the last question. Each language is a tool that typically does a few things well so the choice of language is generally driven by what you want to accomplish.

Scribble · Since 18 Nov 2005 636 Posts NoPo Addicted

He does mostly web applications that are used internally by a company or distributed with a product as a service. He uses django and extjs mostly he says.

I am a landscaper who is sick of the industry so I'm looking for other options. I know nothing about programming and do not pretend to, but I've always been pretty good with computers.

Andy

kitebroad · Since 01 Apr 2008 16 Posts San Francisco

I think PHP is the funnest and easiest to learn and that skill is also in high demand since it is such a good way to build small to mid-sized web based database driven applications quickly.

I am assuming you want to do web site development/server side scripting. Best thing for that (imho of course) is learn PHP and MySQL (which is an open source relational database) together (don't know if you could avoid it really) so you can start building web apps right off. Those apps are one of the main uses for server side scripting of any type. O'Reilly has some great combined PHP/MySQL books that have stellar project based examples.

Any language you learn well sets the framework for quickly getting up to speed in another since the concepts remain the same, for the most part you just use different syntax.

There are geographical and cultural differences that effect which language is predominantly in demand. Here in Seattle Microsoft casts a long shadow and .net has a stronger presence. Also in more corporatey environments it is usually more popular. But we also have a lot of companies and agencies that use open source linux based alternatives (which I greatly prefer code and culture wise) like java/jsp/php/python/ruby etc etc.

For you I would suggest doing a monster search in your area and just see what the breakdown of required skills are, especially the places you want to work. Since you have a friend that is doing well with Python and has extra work, seems like you can't go wrong there. But first language wise, I think there is so much more support available for PHP/MySQL. Then you can translate those skills into Python later. Employers also know this and will hire based on skill in one server side scripting language for a job that is actually in another.

Someone else would have to champion ASP.net/C# (which I am very curious to hear about) since I got into open source just after it came out. It does seem like a big learning curve and making that choice would mean you couldn't help out your friend without another learning curve to go open source later.

Web development is an absolutely fun way (if you like it) to make a living and it works well for kiteboarders since often you can set your own hours (and sometimes location too) as long as you get the work done.

Nice to be reminded of when I was just starting out... Smile

Scribble · Since 18 Nov 2005 636 Posts NoPo Addicted

tinyE · Since 21 Jan 2006 2004 Posts not really an XTreme Poster

Download virtual studio express from Microsoft, it is free and has a very intuitive developer interface. If you are new to programming you will need the UI. Php is fun but it will take you a long time to get good.

It really depends on what you want to develop, but if it's pure web, I would learn c#, vb, JavaScript, and SQL. SQL Express is also free from Microsoft. Make sure you get the web development piece of visual studio (I use them all).

You will have fun in the UI, you can see what you are making, and there are millions of google hits on help pages for whatever you are trying to do.

If you want some help getting started, I can help with some ideas for beginner type projects that will challenge you, that will allow you to learn as well

genek · Since 21 Jul 2006 2165 Posts East Po KGB

Everyone's responses are quite good so far. I've heard Ruby is quite flexible, but have no experience with it personally. I hate Python's syntax and design, but maybe that's because I come from an oldschool C, C++ background. PHP is pretty easy to work with and learn I think although once you factor in the HTML and JavaScript that goes into a regular website things get more complicated.

Another option that I haven't used myself and have no idea about the demand is the Google App Engine. It allows you to make web apps using only one language for everything. They allow you to pick either Python or Java I believe and have a powerful framework built for your convenience. As usual it's free.

http://code.google.com/appengine/

Reaper356 · Since 10 Dec 2006 781 Posts Salem / LC Oregon Opinionated

Java is pretty common starting language. Its syntax is similar to Microsoft c#, so you can easily branch out.

I have some books if you need to borrow anything.

shred_da_gorge · Wed May 12, 10 8:11 pm

My advice is to learn more about programming paradigms and patterns than languages. Know which languages are compiled versus interpreted, for starters. I interview "object-oriented" candidates frequently and half of them don't know what polymorphism is or why it would be desirable. If you want to head into the web world, someone who knows databases and data warehouse manipulation and the programming to tie query results into server-based applications is invaluable. If you can take some adult-ed courses in database concepts and programming concepts that's a start.

For languages, Java programmers are a dime a dozen in India. Ruby seems to be gaining popularity and Python is Google's favorite toy. I like C# for raw productivity, though I'm worlds apart from it in my job (embedded systems architect). PHP is a versatile language, but I agree with the person who said it probably won't be your best bang for the buck.

Good luck!

forrest · Wed May 12, 10 8:17 pm

If you want to get a job at a big company making software C# (TinyE's suggestion) or Java (Reaper) are great. Both of those languages have defined ways of solving common development problems and are great when it comes to providing larger solutions to companies. You'll definitely be able to charge more.

If you want to be the more of the kiteboard whenever you want type of developer learn Python or PHP. Both Python/PHP are great, and they allow for much flexibility, you're more likely to be able to whip up quick scripts and web apps with those. Sounds like your buddy could hand you work if you knew Python.

Languages are really only one tiny piece of the skillset. You have to change the way you think about problem solving, break it up into tiny pieces. It's the classic "How do you make a peanut butter sandwich" essay you might have written when you were in 5th grade.

1) Learn the basic logic control structures first: If-Then-Else, Case, For, While, and Do-Until.

2) Then learn about data types: integer, float, char, string, and arrays.

3) Then learn python, php, java, or c# cause they're all really pretty much the same. Once you know one language, they're all very very similar. If you're a real glutten for punishment, or want to see how your computer really works, learn Assembly.

shred_da_gorge · Wed May 12, 10 8:34 pm

Also if you want a local market indicator, troll http://portland.craigslist.org/sof/ . Note that there's a web position open in Hood River (Summit Projects maybe?). The Silicon Valley software scene can be seen here: http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sof/ . Note that there is a huge demand for embedded Linux programmers but that is also being offshored to India and China at a phenomenal rate (I conference with Bangalore and Chennai at least twice a week). Get used to it, it's here to stay.

forrest · Wed May 12, 10 8:55 pm

A little OT but, How much C++ do you use in embedded systems these days? I was messing around with PIC Microcontrollers for a couple of months but these days everyone just seems to be putting Linux on anything embedded. A few years back I set off to make my own UAV, but I never got past controlling a few servos before I got bored.

I have a new obsession with embedded devices, especially after seeing this presentation: http://www.ssi.gouv.fr/IMG/pdf/csw-trustnetworkcard.pdf

I think people make to much of the ideas behind OOAD. Especially the whole polymorphism is going to save our lives and defend us against alien invaders belief. To me OO was just invented to facilitate gigantic development sweat-shops in India. I do like interfaces though, and I'm pretty sure if I was cracking the whip on 250 developers it'd be really hard not to make them used defined interfaces to interact with each other's code.

forrest · Wed May 12, 10 8:58 pm

BTW, I think C# is a great idea for a first language.

lance_k · Since 04 May 2005 565 Posts Hood River Photographer

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rich · Since 30 Nov 2005 306 Posts portland Obsessed

you could just learn a content management system like drupal, wordpress, or joomla, along w/ some layout stuff like html/css, and be well on your way to doing some great web stuff in very little time. I've done a lot of web programming. Started using drupal to deliver my projects, program very little now and deliver a lot more