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First Carbon Foil Reccomendations
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underwood

Since 26 May 2018
9 Posts

Kook



PostSat May 26, 18 6:56 am    First Carbon Foil Reccomendations Reply with quote

Finishing flight school and looking for recommendations for my first carbon foil. As I progressed to longer mast the weight of the foil/mast made getting up on the board increasingly difficult, so was thinking that a lighter foil might help at this stage.

I suspect my foiling will be limited to free riding on non epic days in the gorge and in La Ventana. Hoping to be able to master transitions while up on the foil, but so far not even close ....

Questions;

1) Is a lighter weight foil/mast make water starting easier, or does it really not matter?
2) What mast length should I be looking at for free riding in the Gorge and LV on lighter days.
3) What front wing size (surface area) (I am 180#) would provide good stability for learning transitions, carving long turns, but not be overly slow. (I don't care about top end speed) I am surprised by the amount of variation in front wing areas which range from 600cm2 to over 1000cm2 between brands.

So far I have looked at Lift, LP and Ghost Whisper foils.

Would appreciate hearing from others further up on the leaning curve.

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consumer

Since 28 Nov 2010
392 Posts
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PostSat May 26, 18 8:25 am     Reply with quote

1) Is a lighter weight foil/mast make water starting easier, or does it really not matter?

- carbon is more buoyant and the weight helps with holding/torquing your board in water start position. Also the foil is more responsive to weight adjustment due to low inertia.

2) What mast length should I be looking at for free riding in the Gorge and LV on lighter days.

- not sure this matters - ~90-110cm is what most people have. The big mast is nice for big chop which you typically see on heavy wind days.

3) What front wing size (surface area) (I am 180#) would provide good stability for learning transitions, carving long turns, but not be overly slow. (I don't care about top end speed) I am surprised by the amount of variation in front wing areas which range from 600cm2 to over 1000cm2 between brands.

- I like the shape and ride of my hover glide of all the foils i've tested (2018 lift, 2017 Zeeko, 2018 Ghost whisper 545, 567) - I like the lower aspect wings because I feel like I can do more fluid carves. My ghost whisper stalls out quick if I don't keep my speed up.

Rumor has it there are some new wings coming out in 2019 for SS that address these issues.

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underwood

Since 26 May 2018
9 Posts

Kook



PostSat May 26, 18 11:23 am     Reply with quote

Good input; thx.

Does anyone know if the Ghost Whisper 545, 567 refer to the wing length or the surface area? If surface area then the GW's have smaller area's than say the LP or Lift which I assume loosely means less lift at lower speeds.

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Chipotle

Since 26 Mar 2011
59 Posts

 



PostSat May 26, 18 11:53 am    weight is critical Reply with quote

A big misconception is that carbon foils are lighter than aluminum. Believe it or not, most carbon foils are actually heavier. Neither aluminum nor carbon are "buoyant" with a specific gravity of 2.7 and ~1.8, respectively. You need below 1 to float. The aluminum masts are hollow extrusions, while the carbon masts are all solid laminate.

The way to make a carbon mast float is to make it hollow, which I did with Project Cedrus. The light weight makes it much easier to learn on, and start strapless. Not to mention walk up the beach, travel with, etc. Weight is really really important.

If you want something light, get the original LF orange mast.


   Floating_Foil_Mast.jpg 

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Hein

Since 08 Mar 2005
1209 Posts

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PostSat May 26, 18 2:14 pm     Reply with quote

I've got an LP foil for sale. Make offer.

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eric

Since 13 Jan 2006
1272 Posts

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PostSat May 26, 18 2:30 pm     Reply with quote

<Does anyone know if the Ghost Whisper 545, 567 refer to the wing length or the surface area? If surface area then the GW's have smaller area's than say the LP or Lift which I assume loosely means less lift at lower speeds.>>

Wing span, not surface area

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underwood

Since 26 May 2018
9 Posts

Kook



PostSat May 26, 18 3:49 pm     Reply with quote

[quote]A big misconception is that carbon foils are lighter than aluminum. Believe it or not, most carbon foils are actually heavier. Neither aluminum nor carbon are "buoyant" with a specific gravity of 2.7 and ~1.8, respectively. You need below 1 to float. The aluminum masts are hollow extrusions, while the carbon masts are all solid laminate.
[/quote]

I was certainly under the assumption carbon foils are lighter. The ones I have been looking at seem a lot lighter than the Slingshot Hover glide I am learning on. So some aluminum mast are hollow?

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Chipotle

Since 26 Mar 2011
59 Posts

 



PostSat May 26, 18 8:51 pm     Reply with quote

dont fall for the marketing hype, here's some engineering. I know there are some newer products, but the technology hasn't changed.

   Industry.png 
   Section_Props.png 
   Weight.png 

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aksurfer

Since 30 Aug 2010
90 Posts
Anchorage, AK
 



PostSat May 26, 18 9:41 pm     Reply with quote

Ive got a new SS Ghost Whisper Id like to sell.

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underwood

Since 26 May 2018
9 Posts

Kook



PostSun May 27, 18 8:39 am     Reply with quote

[quote]dont fall for the marketing hype, here's some engineering. I know there are some newer products, but the technology hasn't changed.[/quote]

Thanks for the data; very interesting. Is water intrusion a problem with the hollow mast?

Project Cedrus sounds interesting, where could I read more?

From my limited shopping it seems the lightest mast/foil combinations are in the 6lb (2700g) range. Is that achievable using an AL mast? If so then why not, as you say much easier to produce and lower cost.

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Chipotle

Since 26 Mar 2011
59 Posts

 



PostSun May 27, 18 4:36 pm     Reply with quote

Every time I post on nwkite one of the mods thinks I’m “industry” now thanks to my home built self funded project, so you’ll find info over there:) there’s a whole forum devoted to it on the Bay Area Kite Boarding forum.

Water intrusion is an issue with the first gen LF but you can solve it yourself with some epoxy. The 2nd gen sacrificed weight for lower drag, but it is water tight. The f-one aluminum foils are pretty light, in fact it looks like they stopped making carbon because they were actually heavier.

Find me via BAK and I’m happy to tell you more. I’ve spent over two years on my project analyzing the industry and designing a better carbon foil.

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consumer

Since 28 Nov 2010
392 Posts
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PostSun May 27, 18 4:37 pm     Reply with quote

My hover glide aluminum mast is 6 lbs and 90cm
my ghost whisper carbon mast is 4lbs and 101cm.


This does not include the weight savings from the wings which is huge.

also sure, neither carbon nor aluminum are buoyant but the specific gravity of carbon is lower so its submerged weight is reduced to 44% vs 63% for a submerged aluminum. I used the phrase "more buoyant" incorrectly, sorry.

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Slappysan

Since 13 Jun 2012
213 Posts

Stoked



PostMon May 28, 18 9:17 am     Reply with quote

Water intrusion is annoying when packing up my foil (as I keep my mast permanently attached to my board and just take off my fuselage).

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wylieflyote

Since 30 Jun 2006
1229 Posts
Puget Sound & Wa. Coast
XTreme Poster



PostMon May 28, 18 7:56 pm     Reply with quote

Chipotle,
I am surprised at your recommendation of the 1st Gen LF mast (for lightweight). I'm not alone in the experience that the narrow span (width) of this mast will give you the frequent "sonic boom" spinout when you press just a bit to much torque on it.
If you've experienced it... it feels like you just hit a turtle or something. The 2nd Gen (Happy), although heavier is a big improvement. I would never recommend the original.
Kip

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Chipotle

Since 26 Mar 2011
59 Posts

 



PostMon May 28, 18 8:50 pm     Reply with quote

if there's one thing I've learned from this project, it's that everyone feels something different on a foil. I personally never had a problem with the 1st gen LF mast, and with draggy wings and light winds it's much more difficult to push the mast to an AoA or speed that causes ventilation. Take the 1st gen mast and put high aspect wings on it and try to foil in 25kt winds, you might have problems. But that's not what the mast was designed for.

I made the recommendation solely in the interest of weight, and stand by it. I know a lot of people who still love riding their original LF mast, and appreciate the light weight and cheap cost of entry, once you seal it up to prevent water intrusion.

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wylieflyote

Since 30 Jun 2006
1229 Posts
Puget Sound & Wa. Coast
XTreme Poster



PostTue May 29, 18 4:23 am     Reply with quote

20mph foil speed measured on a Trace, moderate 16mph winds, Wheeler Wings, Stringy Wings, LF fish wings.
Tried them all, then surveyed the beach on several occasions and it was the consensus. Asked LF team riders who also agreed. Most everyone upgraded. Maybe it's the warmer SFO waters in your case. Smile
Been foiling 3 1/2 years.

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Kip Wylie

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bwd

Since 04 Aug 2007
362 Posts

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PostWed May 30, 18 10:12 am     Reply with quote

Quote:
Every time I post on nwkite one of the mods thinks I’m “industry” now thanks to my home built self funded project,

Using only 1 solid, thin carbon race type mast in your comparison and claiming most carbon foils are heavier than aluminum ones also contributes, I bet. It is ad copy, after all.
I respect what you are doing with cedrus but there are definitely other hollow, well engineered masts, and also ones with lower density cores, etc.
You still have a good point, though. Al foils don’t need to 4.5kg. If I’d started with heavyglide I would be amazed at my lighter zeeko al foil at 3.8kg. But like others, I am thinking about moving to carbon, in my case because I like big wings. I believe the Zeeko carbon foil (for example) is around 3.0 kg, and some competitors are lighter. Not always more durable though. True, the solid carbon race stuff is not so light.

Best luck with the project, by the way.
I applaud the effort even if I sound critical. This is the kind of work we need to progress.

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