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Miami Beach Ban
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Matt V

Since 26 Oct 2014
291 Posts
Summer- OR Coast, Winter - My van near good snow
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PostWed Dec 27, 17 10:48 am    Miami Beach Ban Reply with quote

Miami kiters are in need of some support on this one.

Not the best petition format, but hopefully it works. Toby, the moderator and owner or Kiteforum, posted this so I trust it. Help out by signing this and hopefully we can again set precedent FOR access being allowed. Precedent is the one thing that can transfer from one side of the country to the other.

Link to the original post on Kiteforum:

http://www.kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2398445&p=1000773#p1000773


Link to the petition:

https://mbkf.miami/contact-city-representative/

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jack

Since 12 Mar 2006
197 Posts

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PostWed Dec 27, 17 11:01 am     Reply with quote

I kited Miami beach once and I forget the exact location (somewhere south oh the Fountainebleau). What amazed me was how close kiters kept coming to swimmers who were right by shore (10 to 15 feet or less). The kiters all seemed local. If they weren't local, then there was no vocal local presence discouraging such unnecessary activity.

I am not saying they deserve what they may be getting, but I was really very surprised by how kiters there behaved.

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knotwindy

Since 25 Sep 2011
336 Posts

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PostWed Dec 27, 17 4:34 pm     Reply with quote

Yup, everything happens for a reason
Sometimes...., sometimes the reason is youíre stupid and make poor choices.

Sorry, couldnít help myself. I have no idea what the situation is there but I do hope it works out well for everyone concerned.

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bigjohn

Since 13 Mar 2012
311 Posts

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PostWed Dec 27, 17 6:47 pm    Re: Miami Beach Ban Reply with quote

Matt V wrote:
Miami kiters are in need of some support on this one.

Not the best petition format, but hopefully it works. Toby, the moderator and owner or Kiteforum, posted this so I trust it.


Let me start out with the fact that I'm a huge fan of Toby as he has put together some amazing videos... He is an impressive and capable kiter.

Also, I know nothing about the underlying details leading to the potential kite ban in Miami.

But along with all the great videos Toby has put out a few videos that show him wiping out on/around a beach. I could see how some of these videos might potentially be used to negatively influence others in an access debate.

In my opinion tricks are great, but should only be performed at a safe distance from other beach goers.

I only bring this up to point out that collectively we as a kiting community in Oregon/Washington place a lot of emphasis on safety around other beach goers and beach access points.

Maintaining this awareness throughout our community will go a long way towards keeping our beach access points available for kiting in the future.

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1surfer

Since 20 Apr 2010
310 Posts
Breckenridge / Hawaii
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PostThu Dec 28, 17 8:12 am    Miami dangerous Reply with quote

I was one of the first 2 kiters in Jupiter back in 98'. We had it all to ourselves for a couple of years but when the kiters started coming of from Miami, they were super dangerous kooks. There were one or two nice responsible kiters that came up from Miami and Lauderdale and they were welcome as we were stoked to kite with other humans. The main reason that Jupiter has 3 kite beaches is not because of their specific locations. Its basically the same beach and wind for miles in either direction. It is because the dangerous kiters from Miami and Lauderdale kept coming and taking over the Jupiter beaches with their dangerous and scary kiting, so we kept moving launch spots just to get away from them. I can not overstate how dangerous they were ( and still are ) when they came to Jupiter, and they were even worse in Miami and Lauderdale. I did kite in Miami and Lauderdale a bunch of times as I was there for other reasons and the kiters there were stoopid scary dangerous. They had no regard for other people, children, swimmers beachgoers or other kiters. They were dangerous while launching and kiting. They would do hot launches right next to children and then kite right up to the beach and swimmers and launch kook airs. They still do. No regard for safety or other people whatsoever. Ft. Lauderdale is the same. Miami and Lauderdale are the most dangerous spots and the most dangerous kiters that i have ever seen anywhere. Nothing has changed there. Bad judgment, bad safety practices, bad kiting practices, bad attitudes. From my point of view they brought the ban on them selves and they deserve it. Should have happened a very long time ago. If you look at the way they drive there, its exactly the same.
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SalmonSlayer

Since 27 Nov 2005
555 Posts

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PostThu Dec 28, 17 10:46 am    Re: Miami dangerous Reply with quote

1surfer wrote:
.....I did kite in Miami and Lauderdale a bunch of times as I was there for other reasons and the kiters there were stoopid scary dangerous. They had no regard for other people, children, swimmers beachgoers or other kiters. They were dangerous while launching and kiting. They would do hot launches right next to children and then kite right up to the beach and swimmers and launch kook airs. They still do. No regard for safety or other people whatsoever. ....


I have heard many similar descriptions of Miami kiters

They are proposing enforcing rules in lieu of a ban.

There is a simpler solution. We request the City instead enforce some simple guidelines:
- do not fly your kite over the beach, except to launch and land
- kite 200 feet from shore
- stay 50 feet away from swimmers


I guess 50ft from swimmers seems reasonable and safe if they are currently following no safe distance rules. 50ft is still way too close if I can drop a kite and lines on unsuspecting swimmers.

These kiters are their own worst enemy. If they can't keep their own house clean, they deserve the ban.

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1surfer

Since 20 Apr 2010
310 Posts
Breckenridge / Hawaii
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PostThu Dec 28, 17 11:08 am    Re: Miami dangerous Reply with quote

SalmonSlayer wrote:
1surfer wrote:
.....I did kite in Miami and Lauderdale a bunch of times as I was there for other reasons and the kiters there were stoopid scary dangerous. They had no regard for other people, children, swimmers beachgoers or other kiters. They were dangerous while launching and kiting. They would do hot launches right next to children and then kite right up to the beach and swimmers and launch kook airs. They still do. No regard for safety or other people whatsoever. ....


I have heard many similar descriptions of Miami kiters

They are proposing enforcing rules in lieu of a ban.

There is a simpler solution. We request the City instead enforce some simple guidelines:
- do not fly your kite over the beach, except to launch and land
- kite 200 feet from shore
- stay 50 feet away from swimmers


I guess 50ft from swimmers seems reasonable and safe if they are currently following no safe distance rules. 50ft is still way too close if I can drop a kite and lines on unsuspecting swimmers.

These kiters are their own worst enemy. If they can't keep their own house clean, they deserve the ban.


Yes, that does sound reasonable and safe. Just be aware that these self regulating common sense rules were proposed both in Miami and Lauderdale back in 2004, 05, 06 ,07, 08, 09 and on and on etc .... I mean it does not matter to me any more because I mostly water kite in Hawaii, never in Floriduh but I always cringe when I witness or hear about kiters both not self regulating and endangering others as a common thing or habit. My purpose of posting my response here is so that everyone reading can have the full and truthful back story on kiters in Miami and Lauderdale. I will also say that I have met several and I am sure there are some responsible kiters there.

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Matt V

Since 26 Oct 2014
291 Posts
Summer- OR Coast, Winter - My van near good snow
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PostFri Dec 29, 17 8:56 am     Reply with quote

I will not argue against the previous posters assessment of the average Miami Beach kiteboarders personality.

I will not argue against there being some locations where beachgoers would be safer without kiters at that beach.

But a ban sets a precedent Ė there is no argument against this!

How many Oregon Coast kiteboarding locations have beach goers mixed with kiters? How many beachgoers are at the event site and out on the sand bar? Even Rufus, and many other locations have seen conflicts between beachgoers and kiteboaders.

If you believe that a TOTAL BAN is justified and deserved, I bet you will change your tune when you see this posted in response to a proposed kiteboarding ban at a Gorge or Oregon coast site that you use.

ďI kite mostly in Florida and Texas. I went to the Gorge once and the kiters there are idiots. They launch at unsafe small beaches, if you can even call it a beach. They donít even follow their own rules about not throwing tricks inside of a buoy next to the beach. They have no idea about the right of way rules. And there are beginners there dropping their kites on top of people just walking on the beach. If kiteboarding gets banned there, those kiters deserved it!Ē - (fictional post, meant as satire)


jack, knotwindy, bigjohn, 1surfer, SalmonSlayer thanks for your input. It helps some of us in determining whether or not to go to Florida. But you are shooting yourself in the foot with statements BY A KITER, FOR A KITEBOARDING BAN!!!! If I was affiliated with a particular political party, I would love to have all 5 of you as members of the opposing party.

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bigjohn

Since 13 Mar 2012
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PostFri Dec 29, 17 9:45 am     Reply with quote

Matt,

I appreciate your input as everybody has an opinion.

I think that you (as I am sure others will also) misunderstood the intent of the critical postings.

Nobody wants to see a ban in Florida. I would bet that all the posters you called out had already signed the petition on behalf of the kiters in Florida. I know I did.

The point is that anytime there is a potential ban on a kitesurfing location it is an opportunity to perform a little self reflection.

Did the local kiters in that region do things to escalate the tension?
Were there things they could have done to mitigate concerns?

We can learn from others mistakes. Simply putting our heads in the sand and ignoring the signs will only lead to a repeat of the failures of others.

Forum communication among members of the kiting community is one of the best tools for getting the word out regarding safe and acceptable kiting standards.

The Miami Beach Kiteboarders Foundation is now asking the Miami Beach Comissioners to enforce new kiting rules in lieu of shutting down the beach.

I think the point myself and others are trying to make is that if the Miami Beach Kiteboarders Foundation had been able to convince their local kiting community to follow the rules previously, one might assume they might not now be begging the Miami Beach Comissioners to leave their beach access open to kitesurfing.

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SalmonSlayer

Since 27 Nov 2005
555 Posts

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PostFri Dec 29, 17 10:37 am     Reply with quote

Matt V wrote:

jack, knotwindy, bigjohn, 1surfer, SalmonSlayer thanks for your input. It helps some of us in determining whether or not to go to Florida. But you are shooting yourself in the foot with statements BY A KITER, FOR A KITEBOARDING BAN!!!! If I was affiliated with a particular political party, I would love to have all 5 of you as members of the opposing party.


I did not read where anyone said they were for a kiteboarding ban.

If this proposed ban is due to repeated poor practices like what is described above, it is no surprise that a ban is being proposed. If staying 50ft from other users is one of the proposed rules, I think it reflects the mindset that got them to this point in the first place.

If poor practices around other beach users continues, when does your anger toggle from those (see your post) pointing out FL kiteboarders actions, to the bad actors in FL? It is very possible that these FL kiteboarders behavior is the problem and not the local govt or posters pointing out the possible reality. It is very possible that FL kiteboarders will be directly responsible for planting the seeds of kiteboarding bans that will spread to other regions.

Last edited by SalmonSlayer on Fri Dec 29, 17 3:32 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Ho-Toe

Since 30 Apr 2014
99 Posts
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PostFri Dec 29, 17 12:12 pm     Reply with quote

MattV: ďHow many Oregon Coast kiteboarding locations have beach goers mixed with kiters? Ē

All of them. And if anybody pulls this sorta shit at any of those spots, corrective action is taken. Self-regulation, you know, like the type that will prevent a kite ban.

Keep tilting at those windmills, buddy.

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knotwindy

Since 25 Sep 2011
336 Posts

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PostFri Dec 29, 17 12:47 pm     Reply with quote

and again
I did not say a ban was a good idea. I also donít know that it isnít. I said I donít know enough about the situation.
And saying all bans are bad and setting a precedent? As if bans should never happen? Anywhere? Ever? Really?
If you canít self govern your area and that puts others in danger, something will be done and someone will step in. So step up first, as in do the right thing.

And they donít need us to justify an opposing view. Plenty of info out there already. I have heard little about the Miami scene over the years but having said that, all I have heard was pretty bad and not one mention of Ďno itís not like thatí.
Still hope they clean up their mess and it works out well for everyone.

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mrdnd

Since 11 Feb 2011
21 Posts
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PostFri Dec 29, 17 12:59 pm     Reply with quote

I think what struck me about the kiters in south Florida was the culture. It was a cold every man for himself, get out of my way, these waves are mine and you are not welcome. Those proposed rules will help but so would an attitude adjustment. I think that the sandbar can get hectic but the attitude is still solid for the most part. Aggressive, difficult communication and a bad vibe is a big part of what contributes to a ban and is why the Oregon community is still viable.

It is tempting to let the vibe sink as things get more crowded. I have seen a selfish attitude infrequently creep into crowded kite spots in the NW and I can only hope that it doesn't sink down to the level that I experienced in that part of Florida. Even non-kiters can pick up on it. Positivity, manners and stoke are a huge commodity when it comes to keeping spots open.

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Scriffler

Since 03 Jul 2005
560 Posts
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PostFri Dec 29, 17 1:02 pm     Reply with quote

I remember Neil Hutchinson and Hamish Mcdonald came to the gorge and thought they were some kind of rockstar kite duo. They would drink beer all morning and then drunkenly buzz the shore at the event site. Lou Wainman finally told them they were risking access for everyone and they stopped. Nice guys but I believe they are from either Miami or ft lauderdale so that seems in line with a ban if everyone there kites like that!

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1surfer

Since 20 Apr 2010
310 Posts
Breckenridge / Hawaii
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PostSat Dec 30, 17 8:17 am     Reply with quote

mrdnd wrote:
I think what struck me about the kiters in south Florida was the culture. It was a cold every man for himself, get out of my way, these waves are mine and you are not welcome. Those proposed rules will help but so would an attitude adjustment. I think that the sandbar can get hectic but the attitude is still solid for the most part. Aggressive, difficult communication and a bad vibe is a big part of what contributes to a ban and is why the Oregon community is still viable.

It is tempting to let the vibe sink as things get more crowded. I have seen a selfish attitude infrequently creep into crowded kite spots in the NW and I can only hope that it doesn't sink down to the level that I experienced in that part of Florida. Even non-kiters can pick up on it. Positivity, manners and stoke are a huge commodity when it comes to keeping spots open.


The attitudes there and elsewhere will not change. Probably will get worse. Like I said before, If you are familiar with the way people drive in Miami and Lauderdale it says it all. The driving there is dangerous for everyone but it is getting worse, not better. Rats in a cage. Just like the kiting there. The rats in that cage will probably start eating each other soon.

Conducting any extreme / dangerous sport near innocent bystanders is a privilege, not a right. If people abuse that freedom and endanger others that privilege may be revoked. That is neither unfair nor unreasonable.

Molokai is a great example. We do self regulate. If you kook out there, the local kiters and non kiters will shut you down immediately. Then you are done and you may not kite there any more ever. All the people kiting or at the beach near the kiters are on the same page and inconsiderate / oblivious / bad attitude kiters are not tolerated whatsoever. That group effort by all the residents is an active way to preserve our privilege of kiting on Molokai. There is no other way. For now, its working. It is tough love but it is a great example of self regulation and how it can work well for the kiters and non kiters to coexist in harmony.

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bwd

Since 04 Aug 2007
347 Posts

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PostSat Dec 30, 17 8:55 am     Reply with quote

Ok but that does sound a little too much like
me beatum head with coconut
Miami is a good place to make a plane connection
Nice view from above but not eager to be on the ground
Signed petition anyway...

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1surfer

Since 20 Apr 2010
310 Posts
Breckenridge / Hawaii
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PostSat Dec 30, 17 9:06 am     Reply with quote

bwd wrote:
Ok but that does sound a little too much like
me beatum head with coconut
Miami is a good place to make a plane connection
Nice view from above but not eager to be on the ground
Signed petition anyway...


I am all for preserving the right to kite. I am also in favor of banning dangerous kiters that become repeat offenders.

And for the record, the Molokai locals don't use weapons. Just being "spoken to" by someone is plenty. Very Happy Works very well.

What I am saying is that if all the good respectful kiters in places like Miami and Lauderdale take a proactive, no kook kiters tolerated stance and work together with a zero tolerance game plan to shut out the offenders, it will work. Good old bipartisan unity for a common cause. The every man for himself attitude thing will result in a kiting ban on all public beaches. Its inevitable.

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