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CGKA - Maintaining good relations at Lyle
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bigjohn

Since 13 Mar 2012
296 Posts

Obsessed

CGKA Member


PostSat Sep 16, 17 3:10 pm     Reply with quote

Trent wrote:
Doesn't matter even one little tiny bit whether or not kiting has any effect on salmon fishing in the mouth of the Klik. What matters is that it's a show stopper for the stakeholders there. "Call BS" as a previous poster suggests and the negotiations are over and access is lost.


+1

We could probably pay to have a study done... You know something like have every kiter pitch in a couple of hundred bucks to pay some scientists to do a study that no one's gonna believe anyways...

OR...

We could listen to the concerns of all partys involved and try to find some common ground.

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5walnut10

Since 01 Aug 2014
43 Posts

 



PostSat Sep 16, 17 5:00 pm     Reply with quote

Instead of looking at this from a perspective of are the fish bothered or not... How about just focusing on the kiting aspect? Are the conditions so good in the mouth of the river that you'd prefer to kite there over anywhere else in the gorge and are ready to go to war with the railroad, tribe, fisherman, city of Lyle, and don't give a F@|( about your fellow kiters and what they think?

I get that it's flat but there's other flat spots and it's cold water plus I don't particularly think the wind is that good at Lyle.

Don't get sucked into feelings of entitlement. Ton's of good water and wind out there.

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watercamper

Since 08 Sep 2017
7 Posts
Boise
Kook



PostSat Sep 16, 17 5:55 pm    Kudos to Blaine and World Class. Reply with quote

I am so new to this sport it isn't funny. I took lessons at Lyle. It was a safety issue for me. My last one was last week and I saw all of the kiters in the mouth and was totally confused after what I had read on this forum about the access issues. It's good to see people get the word and immediately take the appropriate action.

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Scriffler

Since 03 Jul 2005
555 Posts
LYLE
Addicted



PostSat Sep 16, 17 10:20 pm     Reply with quote

I have literally kited in the mouth of the klickitat and watched guys hauling in salmon by the boatload and from the shore. I am also pretty sure salmon don't feed while they are heading upriver to spawn so not sure if they are looking toward the surface. I have also fished the mouth and caught a ton of fish, or none at all. Every time I fished it I could see hundreds of salmon swimming upriver beneath the sUrface. I would say don't kite there if people are fishing. Hard to tell that to a bunch of pro kiter trust fund kids, but it is that simple.

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Windstoked

Since 21 May 2013
42 Posts
Norcal
 



PostSun Sep 17, 17 11:05 am     Reply with quote

I do agree that kiting right around fishermen is impolite and should be strongly condemned. However, the argument that it's off-limits even when no fishermen are there because they scare the salmon from going up the river is the one that needs to be challenged.
Salmon biologists will tell you that salmon always return to their native river unless blocked by an impenetrable barrier, and I would venture that a kiter has never scared a salmon from going up the Klickitat River but rather turned back and went up a different river.

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bigjohn

Since 13 Mar 2012
296 Posts

Obsessed

CGKA Member


PostSun Sep 17, 17 11:47 am     Reply with quote

Windstoked wrote:
I do agree that kiting right around fishermen is impolite and should be strongly condemned. However, the argument that it's off-limits even when no fishermen are there because they scare the salmon from going up the river is the one that needs to be challenged.
Salmon biologists will tell you that salmon always return to their native river unless blocked by an impenetrable barrier, and I would venture that a kiter has never scared a salmon from going up the Klickitat River but rather turned back and went up a different river.


How do you propose we challenge?

Are we going to provide scientific proof? Irrefutable scientific proof that all fishermen are going to believe without question?

Are we willing to take a stand and potentially lose our chance at legal access just to make a point?

The kiting community has very little to negotiate with. Our greatest asset is that our activities help spur regional economic growth. However kiting is just one of many activities that do so.

Our strongest ally is Commissioner Sauter. He recognizes the value that recreation brings to the local communities.

I believe it is in our best interest to listen to the direction Commissioner Sauter provides us through the CGKA as he attempts to navigate through the challenges other stakeholders present to him.

It is possible that kiting in the rivermouth ends up not being a primary concern for the Yakima Nation as a singular entity, however we currently know that members of the Yakima Nation have expressed their strong concerns over the potential impact of kiting in the rivermouth.

As good neighbors I feel it is important that we recognize those concerns IMMEDIATELY and not kite in the rivermouth.

If you have access to scientific studies that prove that kiting does not impact salmon runs up the Klicikitat River then I suggest you present those studies directly to Commissioner Sauter.

However, the expression of your opinions (even if your opinions are correct) are likely not to carry much weight against the opinions of Yakima Nation fisherman that have generations of fishing knowledge on the Klickitat River.

***EDIT***
I meant CGKA, not CGCC... (Not sure if Columbia Gorge Community College would be much help for us regarding Lyle access Confused )
*** End EDIT***

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Last edited by bigjohn on Sun Sep 17, 17 3:06 pm; edited 1 time in total

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cgka

Since 18 Jul 2006
225 Posts

Stoked



PostSun Sep 17, 17 2:09 pm     Reply with quote

Thank you for the well written words Big John.

bigjohn wrote:
Windstoked wrote:
I do agree that kiting right around fishermen is impolite and should be strongly condemned. However, the argument that it's off-limits even when no fishermen are there because they scare the salmon from going up the river is the one that needs to be challenged.
Salmon biologists will tell you that salmon always return to their native river unless blocked by an impenetrable barrier, and I would venture that a kiter has never scared a salmon from going up the Klickitat River but rather turned back and went up a different river.


How do you propose we challenge?

Are we going to provide scientific proof? Irrefutable scientific proof that all fishermen are going to believe without question?

Are we willing to take a stand and potentially lose our chance at legal access just to make a point?

The kiting community has very little to negotiate with. Our greatest asset is that our activities help spur regional economic growth. However kiting is just one of many activities that do so.

Our strongest ally is Commissioner Sauter. He recognizes the value that recreation brings to the local communities.

I believe it is in our best interest to listen to the direction Commissioner Sauter provides us through the CGCC as he attempts to navigate through the challenges other stakeholders present to him.

It is possible that kiting in the rivermouth ends up not being a primary concern for the Yakima Nation as a singular entity, however we currently know that members of the Yakima Nation have expressed their strong concerns over the potential impact of kiting in the rivermouth.

As good neighbors I feel it is important that we recognize those concerns IMMEDIATELY and not kite in the rivermouth.

If you have access to scientific studies that prove that kiting does not impact salmon runs up the Klicikitat River then I suggest you present those studies directly to Commissioner Sauter.

However, the expression of your opinions (even if your opinions are correct) are likely not to carry much weight against the opinions of Yakima Nation fisherman that have generations of fishing knowledge on the Klickitat River.

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moondog

Since 15 Aug 2007
389 Posts
white salmon
Obsessed

CGKA Member


PostSun Sep 17, 17 2:53 pm     Reply with quote

Right now the Yakima Nation is our biggest hurdle to have legal access to the Lyle sandbar. The main principle of any negotiation is "Quid Pro Quo" or something given in return for something else. We need to give the Yakima nation something. We have very little to give. The only thing I can come up with is the promise to STAY OUT of the mouth of the Klickitat River. It ain't much, but it is a start. I feel with proper signage, education and self policing it can be accomplished easily.

There will be another meeting in Lyle on September 28 at 7pm. County Commissioner David Sauter will be hosting it at the Lions. Please come and let your voice be heard.

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Matt V

Since 26 Oct 2014
276 Posts
Summer- OR Coast, Winter - My van near good snow
Explosive Diarrhea



PostMon Sep 18, 17 6:40 am     Reply with quote

Windstoked wrote:
... the argument that it's off-limits even when no fishermen are there because they scare the salmon from going up the river is the one that needs to be challenged.


I agree with Windstoked that there is likely no impact of kiting on upstream salmon migration. I would doubt any study would be needed to prove that. But fishing impacts, regardless of statistical catch rate analysis, definitely exist even if they are only an imaginary emotional component of the fishermen. They are real in the minds of fishermen, and that is more of a hurdle than even proof of that effect to get over.

bigjohn and moondog are right on. Something needs to be given up as a concession. "My way or the highway" attitude will see us on the on the shoulder with our thumbs out to get to another spot when this spot is eliminated altogether. If we get a real ban at this location, we may have set the president for more closures.

We must be careful on how much we push against opponents of our sport. Often times, the best path to the goal is not a straight line.

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SalmonSlayer

Since 27 Nov 2005
549 Posts

Addicted



PostMon Sep 18, 17 10:28 am     Reply with quote

Matt V wrote:
Windstoked wrote:
... the argument that it's off-limits even when no fishermen are there because they scare the salmon from going up the river is the one that needs to be challenged.


I agree with Windstoked that there is likely no impact of kiting on upstream salmon migration. I would doubt any study would be needed to prove that. But fishing impacts, regardless of statistical catch rate analysis, definitely exist even if they are only an imaginary emotional component of the fishermen. They are real in the minds of fishermen, and that is more of a hurdle than even proof of that effect to get over.

bigjohn and moondog are right on. Something needs to be given up as a concession. "My way or the highway" attitude will see us on the on the shoulder with our thumbs out to get to another spot when this spot is eliminated altogether. If we get a real ban at this location, we may have set the president for more closures.

We must be careful on how much we push against opponents of our sport. Often times, the best path to the goal is not a straight line.



Salmon running up river are not easily deterred from their goal. Think of it as "closing time" at a bar.

Other species of fish that just mill around will find other places to hang out if there is pressure from kiteboarders.

Regardless, fishermen's perception trumps reality. Staying out of the river mouth is a small concession IMHO. Hard to enforce though with no legal authority. There will be violators. Setting realistic compliance expectations may not be absolute enough for the fisherman.

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ldhr

Since 21 Jul 2009
887 Posts
Hood River
Opinionated



PostMon Sep 18, 17 10:45 am     Reply with quote

I was at the meeting last year when this was brought up.
Fish migrating up the river is not the main issue.... as I understood the comments by local fishermen.
The original complaint and observation came from the Lyle locals that fish at the mouth -
under and around the bridge.
The bridge is a choke point and a good spot to cast for fish heading up river.
The kiters who ride at the mouth are spooking the fish they're trying to catch.

We would all agree that the fish might get spooked - but they will migrate up the river.
They might get delayed but will return and push up river.

However - being spooked will ruin the fishing at the mouth.

If you have the opinion that wake-style kiters jumping and looping and pulling a wake would not spook a salmon or steelhead - I'm gonna guess that you don't know jack about fishing for salmon and steelhead (pun intended).

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SalmonSlayer

Since 27 Nov 2005
549 Posts

Addicted



PostMon Sep 18, 17 11:40 am     Reply with quote

ldhr wrote:

If you have the opinion that wake-style kiters jumping and looping and pulling a wake would not spook a salmon or steelhead - I'm gonna guess that you don't know jack about fishing for salmon and steelhead (pun intended).


I know a little bit about salmon behavior. The degree of impact from kite boarders on a salmon is not great. They will still go up river and spawn. As it stands now, the percentage of time a kite boarder is in the channel is very small. There needs to be wind and a kite boarder in the river mouth. How many windy hours are there in a day. How many days are windy? How many hours are kite boarders present in the channel during these windy periods. I would be surprised if it was even near 10% on the average day when salmon are running and probably less than 5%.

It could be argued that anything that is a perceived threat will change a salmons short term appetite or desire to bite on whatever a fisherman is offering such as the fisherman are doing. I doubt it is true. I bet a long term study would find there little impact on catch rates. Average fisherman are notorious for their imagination dominating their actual knowledge of fishing to explain conditions and analyze their luck.

See the pic below with Sockeye salmon fisherman. You cant see all of the boats, but there are over 100 boats with roaring diesel engines. This scene is complete kaos in person. Why are the fish still swimming towards them and being caught in their nets? If these boats dont send salmon fleeing in a different direction when they could swim around this crowd, how does a kite boarder do it?

I think kite boarders should just stay out of the mouth as has been suggested only because it is a necessary concession.


   424908_3448621422473_2122540240_n.jpg 

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ldhr

Since 21 Jul 2009
887 Posts
Hood River
Opinionated



PostMon Sep 18, 17 12:54 pm     Reply with quote

With a name like SalmonSlayer - I'll defer in all things related to the death and destruction of Salmonidae.

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cgka

Since 18 Jul 2006
225 Posts

Stoked



PostMon Sep 18, 17 2:03 pm     Reply with quote

To clear the air on things a bit, yes, it is the concerns of the fishermen that have been actively using this location for over a hundred years and many generations, so what concerns they have rule over some of our passionate desires for flat water.

Reality concerns for what kites possibly "scare" away are the Osprey, other migratory birds and smaller animals that habitat the river mouth and adjacent wetlands.
The River Keepers is a somewhat powerful and vocal environmental organization that has had concerns about not only kites, but also windsurf sails (their concerns at Lyle go as far back as the early 90's when this was a popular speedsailing location). They presented evidence that their speeding boards and loudly snapping sails (during jibes) were scaring the nesting birds.
From our experiences, we very much do not want this environmental organization to see us as having any sort of issues or in being a non-compliant user group.

What many of you have communicated in these later posts is absolutely 'spot on' correct, in that we want to be a viable, desired and contributing member of the recreational user groups in Lyle.

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moondog

Since 15 Aug 2007
389 Posts
white salmon
Obsessed

CGKA Member


PostMon Sep 18, 17 2:08 pm     Reply with quote

One point that kiters don't seem to understand on this thread, is that it is also about the fishermen. If I was out there fishing and some knucklehead on a kite kept buzzing my boat at 25 mph, I would be very perturbed. Don't forget how upset kiters get out at Rufus when the fishermen take up our launching sites. We need to respect the other river users and take the advice of my kindergarten teacher, " It's time to share Johnny." Infringing on the personal space of the fishermen doesn't bode well for a legal access.
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Hulk

Since 17 Feb 2017
17 Posts
Portland, OR
 

CGKA Member


PostMon Sep 18, 17 2:37 pm     Reply with quote

For some perspective from another wind sport, the hang gliding community is FULL of old guard who lament about how awesome this place or that place was to fly, before access got revoked. We've seen our supply of flying sites drop over the years, and the ones we keep are only done so due to the diligence and care that members of our community put in to keeping those relations strong. Hang gliding is dying because of lack of access. Let's not constrain kiteboarding too.

For Lyle, just compare the visible impacts of the different user groups. Don't even worry about the fish behavior, nesting birds, BNSF, all of that for a moment. We are by far the loudest, fastest, highest-impact non-commercial users of the area. In any court of public opinion, pit us against Native American fisherman and we will lose. We will lose big and we will lose fast. Being not just good stewards of the water, but also good neighbors to the others who use it, will be key to maintaining and expanding access, both at Lyle and elsewhere.

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Matt V

Since 26 Oct 2014
276 Posts
Summer- OR Coast, Winter - My van near good snow
Explosive Diarrhea



PostTue Sep 19, 17 6:20 am     Reply with quote

SalmonSlayer wrote:

It could be argued that anything that is a perceived threat will change a salmons short term appetite or desire to bite on whatever a fisherman is offering such as the fisherman are doing. I doubt it is true.


Ever fly fished and spooked a fish because you were too close and then tried to catch it? I have some experience fishing a wide range of species and I can guarantee you that a spooked fish is near impossible to get interested in almost any lure.


SalmonSlayer wrote:

See the pic below with Sockeye salmon fisherman. You cant see all of the boats, but there are over 100 boats with roaring diesel engines. This scene is complete kaos in person. Why are the fish still swimming towards them and being caught in their nets? If these boats dont send salmon fleeing in a different direction when they could swim around this crowd, how does a kite boarder do it?


1. Fish schooling behavior in deep water is much different than shallow.
2. Overhead predators are not as much of a concern to fish in this situation.
3. Does the hum of an engine up your anxiety as much as a backfire?
4. Basic animal behavioral evolution/adaptation clearly illustrates that regular occurrences are much more likely to be ignored than rare occurrences - something out of place sounds the alarm - not something normally encountered.


SalmonSlayer wrote:

I think kite boarders should just stay out of the mouth as has been suggested only because it is a necessary concession.


Most of those working behind the scenes agree that this may be nessesary for any legal access concessions. I don't like it, but it is better than the alternative of no access at all.

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