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Splicing a loop into a q-line?
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dwaynej

Since 09 Sep 2013
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PostSun Sep 27, 15 9:53 pm    Splicing a loop into a q-line? Reply with quote

Ugh - So I blew a front line yesterday which would make the third this year - Ozone, Cabrinha, and now Flysurfer.

Looking at going the q-line route but the safety system on my Flysurfer bar has a fifth line that attaches to a splice on one of the front lines.

Any idea if q-line can be spliced to add a loop for the safety line??

If the q-line cannot be easily spliced, three options for me are to:

- Have a loop sown around the q-line similar to a line end.
- Tie a figure 8 in the front line together with a small ring which can be used to attach the safety line to.
- Modify the safety system to flag using one of the four lines although I would prefer to leave the safety system as is.

Thanks!

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Matt V

Since 26 Oct 2014
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PostMon Sep 28, 15 8:12 am     Reply with quote

Q-power line cannot be spliced. You have 2 choices - knots or sewn loops.

""- Have a loop sown around the q-line similar to a line end.
- Tie a figure 8 in the front line together with a small ring which can be used to attach the safety line to. ""

The sewn loop in the end gets some of its strength from not just the stitching, but also the larks head loop. I used to always tie an overhand knot at the head of the loop so I could use it for either inside or outside connections. This adds considerable "non slip" to the loop and could easlily stay connected to the kite even if the stiching failed. Your first suggestion seems to NOT be a viable one to me as you would load the stitching without the benefit of a larks head knot. The second would require a stopper knot for the figure 8 and I could not recommend that either. It seems possible though.

I used to be a fan of Q-line and still have some. Great stuff and really usefull for making quick pigtails (I only trust them on the rear lines).

I used to sleeve my Q-power line with the sheath off of some smaler diameter "Excel Pro" 3mm? line. Just pull out the core and you have your sleeve for the Q-line. Then sew it to look like all other mfg's looped ends.

But be forewarned. I did break a Q-line front line at this sleeve. After breaking it, I realized that you need to sew slow AND also wet the Q-line before you run stitches through it. Otherwise, the fast motion of the sewing machine will heat/cut the inner core strands. Just look up the melting point of Dyneema/Spectra. Not something you want to get hot.

Then I started using knots on Q-line for my Best and North bars that released to the leash via the redline onto both front lines. I found that it worked really well if you made your front line set 1 piece with a figure 8 knot at the Y point in your line and 1 on each end to attach to the kite (only 3 knots total on a front line set which was 1 piece of Q-power line). That way, you could loosen the figure 8 knot at the Y point and tune your front lines to be the same length. Just make sure the figure 8 knot is clean and does not have a loop off to one side. Tie a few figure 8's and you will see some bad knots that can be loosened and corrected to look smooth.

I did that until I came across NAK's post on the Jerry Brown fishing line sets that he was making. I think NAK has done some testing on the knot loops on Q-line and found the breaking strength to be as low as 250lb with a proper figure 8 knot. Becuase of this and some other reasons, I do not use the Q-power line for line sets anymore.

Now I am in love with the Jerry Brown line sets as per NAK's guide on how to make them. I use a different method to stretch them that I will not disclose as it is more dangerous than NAK's "Fusible link". But they must be pre-stretched. I was going through Best/North loose braid front line sets in 1 month. I never had a breakage issue as I watch my lines closely. I simply changed them out when they showed a dangerous looking fray on the North or Best lines. But Jerry Brown lines seem not to wear at all.

My new Jerry brown line set has held up the entire season since I made them this spring. There is no sign of wear on them at all except where you cross your lines when looping the kite. And that wear has been stopped by me using s bit of 303 protectant (DO NOT USE THE FABRIC 303 STUFF - use the regular). The 303 makes the lines slippery where they cross and I think I can get another year out of that point on the lines.

Thanks NAK!

Might I ask where you are breaking the front lines? Do you have an explanation on why they are breaking for you?

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dwaynej

Since 09 Sep 2013
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PostMon Sep 28, 15 12:53 pm     Reply with quote

Thank you so much! Need to reconsider my line choice!

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Sasquatch

Since 09 Mar 2005
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PostMon Sep 28, 15 12:57 pm    How did the lines break? Reply with quote

Matt V wrote:


Might I ask where you are breaking the front lines? Do you have an explanation on why they are breaking for you?




Yes, my same question. Is it the same line that you are breaking? What are you doing that causes these breaks?

I've never had a line snap (throwing a pinch a salt over my shoulder right now).

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SalmonSlayer

Since 27 Nov 2005
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PostMon Sep 28, 15 3:20 pm     Reply with quote

I have had Q-power line last (easily) twice as long as factory lines.

On a particularly violent wind day about a month ago. I broke factory lines on two different bars. Visually, they were in very good condition. I saw nothing to indicate a weak spot. They are getting replaced with Q-powerline. I tie the ends with a figure 8 knot.

It is a $$$ and session saver IMHO

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Nak

Since 19 May 2005
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PostMon Sep 28, 15 4:54 pm     Reply with quote

There are a couple of issues with Q-line to be aware of.

First, no splicing as has been mentioned. All of the strength is in the center fibers which are not braided. The outer housing provides abrasion protection only. Knots are far more tangle prone than splices or even sewn loops. Sewn loops are worse than spliced loops.

Second, even running figure 8 knots cuts your total line strength considerably. I ran a number of tests on my bench tester, and q-line broke at the knot at around 250 pounds tension, pretty darn low. Similar diameter 800# test spliceable line breaks at about 750#.

Good 800# line or even 500# line has less stretch than Q-line. The Q-line pro I tested had about twice the stretch that 800# factory lines have. Line stretch makes a huge difference in how a kite performs. I'm pretty sure I posted my tests years back, but I believe these were close to what I saw: 30# tension, 20 meter lines: 800# factory or Jerry Brown line: 1.5". 500# Factory or Jerry Brown line: 2.25"? Q-line Pro: 3". No name 800# line: 4". The no name line made the kite fly utterly and completely horrible. Too much stretch. Also, it is imperative that you use the same line left to right. Any difference in stretch left to right makes the kite damn near uncontrollable. Not really I guess, but it sure feels that way.

Do not use no name spectra line for the above reasons.

Q-line is certainly easier to make loops with, just tie a knot. However, 800# test line can also be knotted. While not ideal you still end up with about 350# breaking strength. Q-line knots are less likely to slip at all, but can still slip a little bit resulting in different line lengths.

Personally, I'd only use a knotted line as an emergency session saver. But that's everyone's personal decision. Even in an emergency, a quick spliced line only takes a minute or two if you lock the splice with super glue. (ONLY use special super glue specifically designed for spectra. If it doesn't use an activator or similar, it WILL NOT hold spectra. It may feel like it does, but the bond breaks down very easily.)

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Matt V

Since 26 Oct 2014
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PostMon Sep 28, 15 5:09 pm     Reply with quote

I can confirm the low stretch of Jerry Brown line. It feels like you have more depower in the gusts. This is because your front lines do not get so much longer (elastic stretch) when hit by a sudden burst of power. If you lengthen your front lines, it is the same as shortening your back lines by sheeting in. And this is exactly what is happening in a gust - front line stretch is actually making you sheet in on that gust.

Go with low stretch line that you can splice and thanks again to NAK for doing some testing and putting some numbers out there.

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dwaynej

Since 09 Sep 2013
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PostMon Sep 28, 15 5:21 pm     Reply with quote

1. Cabrinha front line broke at bar end splice. It seems whoever built the line hardened the tip either by heat or glue to make the splice and the outside of the splice wore against the inside tip.

2. Same for the Ozone line.

3. Still researching why the Flysurfer broke. Somewhat premature.

Three bars purchased brand new over the last year so I guess I am doing something very right... Kiting a lot.

Never had issues with kites or bridles - Just seem to find issues with bars and flying lines.

Always seem to fall back to my Compsticks... I like Slingshot lines but just dislike the white.

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Matt V

Since 26 Oct 2014
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PostMon Sep 28, 15 5:47 pm     Reply with quote

Dyneema/Spectra is one of the few plastic materials that nothing affects. Chemicals like oil in the water don't do anything to it. It is so inert that it is actually somewhat impossible to glue since nothing reacts chemically and bonds to it.

So, if I have put your mind at ease, just use Sharpies on the lines or ends. I just bought a set of Red, Green, Blue, Black to color my Jerry Brown lines if I happen to use it to make line sets for my snow kites. (I actually have as it was my first Jerry Brown project last winter but I did not color them as they are front line leaders.)

Maybe NAK can verify that not strength reduction takes place when you use a standard sharpie on your lines.

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Nak

Since 19 May 2005
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PostMon Sep 28, 15 5:49 pm     Reply with quote

Hmmm, I'd love to look at that line. Post a pic maybe? Colored line is very difficult to glue, as the color is usually a coating on top of the spectra. If it broke right at that point you're probably right about the heat. If that's true that's pretty bad, as heated/melted spectra line loses at least 80% of it's strength... it may be a glue that really isn't bonding with the spectra, just solidifying to prevent the splice from creeping. (All of the strength of the splice is in the splice. The sewing/glue just holds the splice in place when there is no tension on the line.) If that's what they're doing, then you're going to see abrasion internally as the line fibers rub against the glue... Colored line should be spliced, then sewn to lock the splice.

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Nak

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PostMon Sep 28, 15 5:53 pm     Reply with quote

Matt V wrote:

Maybe NAK can verify that not strength reduction takes place when you use a standard sharpie on your lines.


I've done that with sharpies too. I've not done any instrumented testing, but I've never had an issue. The color just wears off and needs to be re-done every now and then.

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dwaynej

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PostMon Sep 28, 15 6:01 pm     Reply with quote



Carbinha line and identical break on a Ozone line.

The whole discussion about splicing in a loop is to accommodate the current bar's 4.5 line safety system and I could also accomplish the same by changing the front flag line from a single line with a splice to two lines with a loop and using the upper line to loop together the lower line and safety line. Alternatively, changing from a 4.5 line flag to a 4 line flag is an option but I need a good look at the bar to confirm the ease if this... I just like the neatness and convenience of 4 equal lines.

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SalmonSlayer

Since 27 Nov 2005
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PostMon Sep 28, 15 10:46 pm     Reply with quote

Nak wrote:
T

Second, even running figure 8 knots cuts your total line strength considerably. I ran a number of tests on my bench tester, and q-line broke at the knot at around 250 pounds tension, pretty darn low. Similar diameter 800# test spliceable line breaks at about 750#.

...800# factory or Jerry Brown line: 1.5". 500# Factory or Jerry Brown line: 2.25"? Q-line Pro: 3". No name 800# line: 4". The no name line made the kite fly utterly and completely horrible.



I am surprised by your findings based on my non scientific observations. I put my q-line through the paces for four years before one line broke and I retired the set. I probably should have retired them earlier, but I wanted to see how long they would last. It was my go to bar and I put a lot of stress on those lines. I even used that set of lines to sail a catamaran as a "kitamaran". Sailing with a kite puts way more stress on kite gear than kite boarding. The kite you choose for sailing a catamaran is essentially deciding what it the biggest kite you can possible handle while hooking it to the boat. It was always a kite size you would never kite with in the same conditions. That is how my q-line finally broke. It was in really gusty over powered conditions body dragging to the boat (the boat gets launched separately) like a human yo-yo. When I hooked it into the boat a quick lull then gust snapped the line. Boats don't move with the kite the same way the human body does when the kite powers up.

I did not notice my lines stretching, but that may easily be that I just did not know any better and ignorance is bliss. I am wondering if q-line as well as other lines stretch when new per your test, but lose their elasticity with use and remain at close to their stretched maximum length after a while.

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Nak

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PostTue Sep 29, 15 7:47 am     Reply with quote

@Dwaynej:

If the area of the break is hard, I'm going to guess they used a glue and the line fibers rubbing against the glue are abrading internally. When I use glue on a splice, I always glue just below the loop. I'd think you'd have less chance of abrasion keeping the glue near the loop and away from the end of the splice. Also, if they're using common superglue that would dramatically increase the abrasion as well, as the glue wouldn't be bonded to the fibers. Still, this is probably a good indication that sewing to lock the splice is preferable to glue.

BTW, sewing to lock a splice takes about a minute by hand...

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Nak

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PostTue Sep 29, 15 7:59 am     Reply with quote

SalmonSlayer wrote:

I am surprised by your findings based on my non scientific observations. I put my q-line through the paces for four years before one line broke and I retired the set. I probably should have retired them earlier, but I wanted to see how long they would last. It was my go to bar and I put a lot of stress on those lines. I even used that set of lines to sail a catamaran as a "kitamaran". Sailing with a kite puts way more stress on kite gear than kite boarding. The kite you choose for sailing a catamaran is essentially deciding what it the biggest kite you can possible handle while hooking it to the boat. It was always a kite size you would never kite with in the same conditions. That is how my q-line finally broke. It was in really gusty over powered conditions body dragging to the boat (the boat gets launched separately) like a human yo-yo. When I hooked it into the boat a quick lull then gust snapped the line. Boats don't move with the kite the same way the human body does when the kite powers up.

I did not notice my lines stretching, but that may easily be that I just did not know any better and ignorance is bliss. I am wondering if q-line as well as other lines stretch when new per your test, but lose their elasticity with use and remain at close to their stretched maximum length after a while.


First off, you may be dead on with your comment of the Q-line losing it's elasticity. Since they claim the line is pre-stretched, I didn't pre-stretch the Q-line prior to testing. It didn't occur to me, but if they don't properly pre-stretch the line that would skew the results of the test I did.

As far as strength goes, I only tested the one batch of line I had. It could have been bad? If you wanted to tie up a short line with two loops, say 6" long total, I could put it on my bench tester. I can measure it before use and after a 100" load to check for knot slippage. Then repeat at 25# intervals until it breaks.

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sfbomber

Since 27 Jun 2012
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PostTue Sep 29, 15 10:12 am     Reply with quote

Hi Nak,
What is the diameter of your q-line?
How old is your q-line?
I'm just wondering if it is possible that you have 300# rated q-line, as that would explain your tests.
Hi dwaynej,
Any chance of seeing a picture of the flysurfer part you want to modify? If it is as I suspect, I would use 7/64" amsteel instead of q-line.

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dwaynej

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PostTue Sep 29, 15 12:59 pm     Reply with quote

sfbomber wrote:

Any chance of seeing a picture of the flysurfer part you want to modify? If it is as I suspect, I would use 7/64" amsteel instead of q-line.


The flysurder bar uses a 4.5 single line flag system. Flag out line runs up to a small spliced loop on one of the front lines.

- Dwayne

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